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[Music]

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the smoke radio for the masses of July

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8th 1947 the Army Air Forces has

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announced that a flying disc has been

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found and is now in the possession of

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the army

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game is rigged change the game changer

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I occasionally think how quickly our

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differences worldwide would vanish if we

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were facing an alien threat from outside

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this work

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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this is Fade to Black with your host

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Jimmy Church on the game changer Radio

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Network

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[Music]

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how you doing today is Wednesday June

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21st 2023 I'm Yoshimi church tonight

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we've got screenwriter author Mark

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O'Connell on tonight with us he's back

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with us and we're going to be talking

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about The Strange Life of Jay Allen

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heineck uh and his UFO career we're

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going to be getting into that very

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deeply and we're also going to talk some

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Star Trek tonight uh and his experience

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uh for writing some of uh Star Trek

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episodes

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and he has written for Star Trek the

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Next Generation and Star Trek Deep Space

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Nine of which the DS9 episode who Mourns

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for mourn was named by Hugo winning

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science fiction writer Charlie Jane

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Anders has number 72 on the io9.com list

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of the top 100 Star Trek episodes of all

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time and I'm going to get straight to

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tonight with Mark I could go into a long

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bio and all of that I'm more interested

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in in

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saying good evening and how you doing

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a great question to lead off with you

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yeah yeah it's good to talk and see see

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you again Mark

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um are you affected by the writers

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strike

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uh yeah I am actually

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um and unfortunately I have not because

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I'm because I spend most of my time now

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in Savannah Georgia I haven't yet had an

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opportunity to join any of the picket

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lines because here in Georgia the picket

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lines are all up in Atlanta

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which is 200 miles to the to the west of

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here so I haven't really been able to

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participate in the strike I'm hoping to

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do so next week I'm going to be in

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Atlanta for a couple days and I'm hoping

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that I can join up with uh with some of

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my Writers Guild comrades and do some

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picketing

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um but it has affected me in uh kind of

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a kind of a funny way shortly before the

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the strike began

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which I believe we're on like day 50 now

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um shortly before the strike began I I

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got some interest from a movie producer

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about a movie script of mine uh this

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latest script I've written and he has to

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he had seen the pitch line on the

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writer's Guild website and asked to see

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the script so I sent him the script

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he had the script for a week or two then

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all of a sudden the strike hits and I

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get a list of

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um rules and regulations from The

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Writer's Guild as to what to do and what

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not to do if you're picketing

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um or or if you're active with any

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projects and one of the rules was

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whoever you've sent a script to

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you need to you need to call them up and

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ask them to immediately either return

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the script if it's a if it's a hard copy

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or delete it if it's an electric copy

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and sure enough so I had to send an

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email to this producer and be like uh

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this is a little awkward but could you

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please destroy and or delete any copies

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of that script uh that may be in your

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offices because you can't look at that

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now

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um until this whole thing is resolved so

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you know it just kills me right out of

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the gate I get I get a you know I get a

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message of interest from a producer and

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immediately boom that gets shut down

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because of the strike but

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I'm not complaining about the strike I

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totally support the strike I've been a

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lifetime member of the writer's Guild

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since the 1990s

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um The Writer's Guild has been a

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fantastic resource for me over the years

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uh Ever every three months I get a Star

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Trek residual check

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um and that's because of the writer's

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Guild The Writer's Guild is making sure

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that CBS sends that check out you know

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every quarter so

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um so yeah we're we're fighting a good

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fight I hope we prevail

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um because really this the streaming the

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streaming video thing now that doesn't

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affect me a whole lot

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um but the streaming video thing is kind

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of killing us there's so much money

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coming into the studios and they're

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they're not sharing it with the writers

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who made those shows possible to begin

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with so yeah yep yep yep yep yep yep

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yeah and and just like with any strike I

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can I can I can totally understand both

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sides I totally can you got to figure

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out a way to eat in the middle I

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understand both sides but do you know

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who I feel really bad for

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there's no Riders hanging out there

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signing into the Wi-Fi right and that's

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you're you're right man you're right I

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hadn't even thought of that well yeah

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yeah yeah Starbucks is the place to hang

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boy I'll listen check that out I passed

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the Starbucks every morning now I'll

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have to check out see you see if there's

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a line outside right well you can you

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know what I'm gonna donate

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what I just said to you you can use that

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freely

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project that was a good line that was a

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good line

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that was a good one that was a good one

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um uh the last strike that went on

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uh which drug on

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that one right and it's uh

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uh you remember we had was it one or two

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seasons of of repeats

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right it was 2007 2008 right the strike

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lasted I believe about 100 days

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totally yeah that whole TV season was

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cut short and just never never existed

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it never existed it never existed yeah

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um and that's what gave us all this

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wonderful reality TV

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because I've had some great experiences

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with reality TV too we would have never

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had big brother right what's that thing

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the island Survivor Survivor Survivor

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was created because we didn't have

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writers yeah yeah

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and what what most I I try to say this

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as much as I can because it's it's just

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my world my reality but Los Angeles and

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specifically Burbank Studio City

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Glendale Sherman Oaks Encino Tarzana

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Woodland Hills

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um these are North Hollywood right

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um everybody that lives there there

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is in film or television and in some in

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some respect right whether it's set

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design a driver a catering sound editing

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actors directors screenwriters

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um uh all of the assistants and the Pas

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and and the uh the Gaffers and you know

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the best boys and how come there's no

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how come there's no best best girl grip

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you can have that in line too you can

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have that one too I consider it okay

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um you uh you teach that you teach at uh

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DePaul you teach writing actually I'm

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I'm no longer doing that yes there's

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been a few changes since the last time

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we talked it's been a couple years since

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I taught it you're in Georgia now so

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yeah you're not at DePaul South right

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and I'm actually in College

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administration now at the Savannah

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College of Art and Design

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which just happens to have a really

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robust film program

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um so I'm you know I'm still kind of in

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the right atmosphere I'm in the right

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milieu I'm just but the situation has

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changed the question is still the same

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though what do you tell students

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about situations like this you know like

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the you know the writers strike and

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production getting shut down because

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that's part of film and television it's

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not all you know being a host of uh

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Entertainment Tonight on the red carpet

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you know for the for the Oscars uh it's

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not all glamor and there are realities

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here too as well do you do you talk to

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them about stuff like this

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well I haven't been teaching anybody

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during the course of this this current

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strike and I wasn't teaching anybody

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back in 2007 during the last strike so I

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haven't really been in a situation where

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I've had to like explain it to any

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students but if I if I was

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um I think I'd have a pretty easy time

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making the case that

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this is unfortunately a necessary part

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of the business we don't work in a

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vacuum

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we're doing the writing but at some

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point that writing has to go to somebody

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else

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and as soon as that writing leaves your

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hands you know it it may change

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um

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somebody May rewrite you there may be a

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strike and you'd be in a situation like

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mine where you have to call the

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producers back back and say please send

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my script back to me

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that's the reality of working in this

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business and

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you know the hope is that we all

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maintain our belief that it's worth this

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struggle I certainly feel that way

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the um uh the other part of this is

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uh the union side of of things is strong

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and if the networks and production

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companies movie studios

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went out and hired non-union Riders

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right and brought them in to keep a show

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moving forward

241
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um and then the strike ends and the old

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Riders come back now is that is that

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part of reality would it is that

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something that you know the writer's

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Guild uh uh speaks about and uh in a

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what if in a worst case scenario

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dealt with in those rules I mentioned

248
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earlier I don't remember exactly what

249
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they have to say about that because that

250
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part of the rule book didn't apply to me

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so I don't know if I even read the whole

252
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thing right um but the situation you're

253
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presenting yeah it it could happen

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it's very unlikely because anybody who

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did work as a scab

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um

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would never be able to join the writer's

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Guild if they if they were working as a

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scab while we were on strike and the

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strike ends and everything sort of goes

261
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back to normal and

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writers are rehired or added to the

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payroll anybody who worked during the

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strike

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uh like I say they're they are they have

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they have kissed any chance of being a

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member of The Guild goodbye yeah that

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and they're pretty strict and here's the

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other part right so they bring in the

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scabs

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and and The Simpsons continues right

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lots of Jesus as an example and and the

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audience reacts wow man Simpsons got

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really good

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it's funny again

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it uh yeah that's that's the other part

277
00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:12,899
of it you know hypothetical it's quite

278
00:13:17,930 --> 00:13:15,480
it's quite the hypothetical

279
00:13:20,329 --> 00:13:17,940
um I I recently

280
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:20,339
um uh I want to talk about Jay Alan

281
00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:23,220
heineck and uh

282
00:13:25,550 --> 00:13:24,600
um and we're going to talk about Star

283
00:13:28,370 --> 00:13:25,560
Trek

284
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,380
I'm not going to talk about I I want to

285
00:13:34,009 --> 00:13:30,720
talk about Star Trek discovery

286
00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:34,019
have you have you watched it I haven't

287
00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:35,519
seen all of it but I've seen quite a bit

288
00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:39,060
of it yeah it's really good it's it it's

289
00:13:43,550 --> 00:13:41,519
really good it is really good I love the

290
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:43,560
main character Michael I think she's one

291
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:46,079
of the best Star Trek characters uh

292
00:13:52,129 --> 00:13:48,800
strong we've seen yep

293
00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:52,139
good good storyline it's it's it's it's

294
00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:54,180
it's it's it's it's it's really well

295
00:13:57,290 --> 00:13:55,620
done I just wanted to mention that

296
00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:57,300
really quick

297
00:14:02,509 --> 00:13:59,040
um there are so many versions of Star

298
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:02,519
Trek out there and you have to uh you

299
00:14:07,310 --> 00:14:04,320
know it's a time management thing right

300
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:07,320
but to keep up on all of it is is a lot

301
00:14:11,930 --> 00:14:09,839
of work and the stories are so deep

302
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:11,940
right the story lines and and how things

303
00:14:17,930 --> 00:14:15,660
are going on but I did take the time uh

304
00:14:19,850 --> 00:14:17,940
to watch everything from Star Trek

305
00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:19,860
Discovery

306
00:14:24,410 --> 00:14:21,660
um and it grabbed hold of me I just

307
00:14:27,650 --> 00:14:24,420
happened to watch the first episode of

308
00:14:29,629 --> 00:14:27,660
season one I went ah oh okay hold on

309
00:14:32,329 --> 00:14:29,639
that's it hold on a minute here I think

310
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:32,339
we got something and and it just turned

311
00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:33,839
out to be really really good now let's

312
00:14:38,290 --> 00:14:37,380
let's talk about uh current events

313
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:38,300
um

314
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:42,000
with everything that you have been doing

315
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:45,600
in in your life with your research

316
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,000
um uh on the UFO subjects

317
00:14:54,189 --> 00:14:50,639
and then you find and and science

318
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:54,199
fiction in general right and suddenly

319
00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:57,600
especially over the last five years we

320
00:15:04,850 --> 00:15:01,680
have found ourselves firmly planted in

321
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:04,860
in science fiction like like never we

322
00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:07,199
never this was stuff that people wrote

323
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:10,220
about right this was stuff

324
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:14,399
and and it's gotten a lot of the world's

325
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:17,040
saying this stuff is real

326
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:21,360
okay this UFO thing did you ever imagine

327
00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:24,720
us getting to this point

328
00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:26,820
well I'm not sure what point we've

329
00:15:32,269 --> 00:15:29,220
gotten to to be honest Jimmy

330
00:15:33,650 --> 00:15:32,279
um absolutely has progress been made in

331
00:15:37,069 --> 00:15:33,660
terms of

332
00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:37,079
public awareness yeah as progress been

333
00:15:42,889 --> 00:15:39,480
made in terms of

334
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:42,899
people being more open to talking about

335
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:45,240
the phenomenon and thinking about the

336
00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:48,300
phenomenon yes absolutely are we any

337
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:50,760
club closer to the you know the

338
00:15:57,769 --> 00:15:55,680
disclosure events I'm not so sure I I I

339
00:15:59,569 --> 00:15:57,779
go against the grain in a lot of ways

340
00:16:04,310 --> 00:15:59,579
with a lot of the with a lot of the

341
00:16:06,670 --> 00:16:04,320
conventional thinking in UFO world

342
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:11,329
yeah this this this gets tricky this

343
00:16:16,610 --> 00:16:13,680
gets tricky so yeah like I said I think

344
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:16,620
awareness has increased but for me I

345
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:19,680
just can't really get too excited about

346
00:16:26,449 --> 00:16:23,519
these things or or buy into them

347
00:16:29,629 --> 00:16:26,459
um because my bottom line is is this

348
00:16:32,509 --> 00:16:29,639
something that's going to

349
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:32,519
um add to my understanding of the

350
00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:33,839
phenomenon

351
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:36,360
and if it is then sure I'll Dive Right

352
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:39,480
In but if it's if it's not I I tend to

353
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:42,000
just stand on the sidelines and just let

354
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,680
it play out

355
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:45,120
um and I think a lot of what we've seen

356
00:16:49,370 --> 00:16:47,040
over the last couple years falls into

357
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:49,380
that category I don't find it convincing

358
00:16:54,590 --> 00:16:52,320
I find a lot of flaws in the the

359
00:16:56,329 --> 00:16:54,600
thinking behind it and I don't feel like

360
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,339
it's going to help me to understand the

361
00:17:02,329 --> 00:16:59,279
phenomenon any better so like I said I

362
00:17:04,669 --> 00:17:02,339
just I I'll step aside and just sort of

363
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:04,679
you know keep keep a watch on things

364
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,720
keep abreast of the latest news but I

365
00:17:09,289 --> 00:17:08,400
don't necessarily believe that we're

366
00:17:12,289 --> 00:17:09,299
really

367
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:12,299
going anywhere with any of this

368
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,120
well the average citizen of the world

369
00:17:22,189 --> 00:17:17,600
right citizens of Earth

370
00:17:25,789 --> 00:17:22,199
when you've got Washington D.C

371
00:17:28,610 --> 00:17:25,799
suddenly addressing this issue

372
00:17:31,010 --> 00:17:28,620
um in in public forums

373
00:17:33,070 --> 00:17:31,020
um at the Department of Defense and Fox

374
00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:33,080
and The New York Times

375
00:17:39,529 --> 00:17:36,780
uh the average citizen is stepping back

376
00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:39,539
and taking it seriously because of that

377
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:43,080
yeah where uh uh our community will

378
00:17:49,970 --> 00:17:46,880
react in their own way the UFO Community

379
00:17:53,950 --> 00:17:49,980
that's fine but but everybody that's

380
00:17:58,250 --> 00:17:53,960
that's the part of it where they need

381
00:17:59,650 --> 00:17:58,260
that right they need Washington DC to be

382
00:18:02,930 --> 00:17:59,660
speaking about this they don't

383
00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:02,940
necessarily need to know the history of

384
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:05,340
Betty and Barney Hill or Roswell right

385
00:18:10,909 --> 00:18:08,160
or Jay Allen heineck right they don't

386
00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:10,919
have to know about nycap or blue book

387
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,020
but if they're hearing about it from

388
00:18:17,090 --> 00:18:15,600
Tucker Carlson then that's that's a

389
00:18:21,529 --> 00:18:17,100
whole nother thing and

390
00:18:26,090 --> 00:18:24,350
well I mean I I don't disagree with a

391
00:18:27,529 --> 00:18:26,100
lot of what you have to say

392
00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:27,539
um

393
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:29,700
but again I just I can't get excited

394
00:18:33,710 --> 00:18:31,679
about news like will so-and-so signed

395
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:33,720
this document well so and so set in on

396
00:18:40,010 --> 00:18:36,799
this meeting at the Pentagon in you know

397
00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:40,020
1963 blah blah blah stuff like that just

398
00:18:45,409 --> 00:18:43,020
I don't know I I I wish I could explain

399
00:18:47,390 --> 00:18:45,419
it better I'm you know there's I just

400
00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:47,400
have some sort of mental block where I

401
00:18:50,750 --> 00:18:49,080
think stories like that are concerned

402
00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:50,760
like I said if it's

403
00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:52,440
if it's helping me understand the

404
00:18:55,730 --> 00:18:54,360
phenomenon better great but if it's not

405
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:55,740
yeah

406
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,320
I I I'm not going to get too wrapped up

407
00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:00,240
in it and and frankly I think a lot of

408
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:01,860
what we've seen over the last couple of

409
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:04,679
years just doesn't it doesn't cross that

410
00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:07,919
threshold with me is it the same you

411
00:19:12,650 --> 00:19:10,559
sound like okay we were talking about

412
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:12,660
this earlier uh it's a good time to

413
00:19:16,190 --> 00:19:13,679
bring this up

414
00:19:19,549 --> 00:19:16,200
you kind of sound like Jay Alan heineck

415
00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:22,370
well that's flattering and in uh in all

416
00:19:28,730 --> 00:19:25,500
truth you know writing his biography did

417
00:19:30,529 --> 00:19:28,740
affect my approach to the phenomenon so

418
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:30,539
you're you're actually spot on with that

419
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,740
observation

420
00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:33,679
it's it's

421
00:19:38,270 --> 00:19:36,120
he was

422
00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:38,280
I'm not suggesting that you're pissed

423
00:19:42,289 --> 00:19:41,100
off maybe you are Maybe

424
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:42,299
I mean I

425
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:44,640
but but you know where I'm going with

426
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:47,120
this and and

427
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:51,840
the it it seems like the UFO community

428
00:19:56,289 --> 00:19:54,000
and the awareness and the investigations

429
00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:56,299
and and the government and the military

430
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:00,299
it has been a vicious cycle right it has

431
00:20:05,690 --> 00:20:02,880
been repeating itself for the last 80

432
00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:05,700
years and if you're a student of this

433
00:20:10,669 --> 00:20:07,860
history you see that we're going through

434
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:10,679
the same things that that heineck wrote

435
00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:13,200
about in 1977 and we went through it in

436
00:20:20,169 --> 00:20:17,100
1980 we went through to 1990 94 95.

437
00:20:23,390 --> 00:20:20,179
these different cyclical major major

438
00:20:26,750 --> 00:20:23,400
things happen and we just keep going

439
00:20:29,570 --> 00:20:26,760
back to to square one to square one is

440
00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:29,580
that just history again repeating itself

441
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:32,340
yeah I believe it is

442
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,240
um

443
00:20:37,330 --> 00:20:35,520
I believe it is I think we've we've seen

444
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:37,340
it all before we've done it all before

445
00:20:42,049 --> 00:20:40,799
we've had God knows how many smoking

446
00:20:45,230 --> 00:20:42,059
guns

447
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:45,240
that have played through this same cycle

448
00:20:50,630 --> 00:20:48,720
in the media and in in UFO UFO research

449
00:20:53,390 --> 00:20:50,640
circles

450
00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:53,400
um and yeah it gets kind of old and it

451
00:20:57,230 --> 00:20:55,559
gets kind of tiring and if you know if

452
00:20:59,210 --> 00:20:57,240
you have a historic I think if you have

453
00:21:01,210 --> 00:20:59,220
a good historical perspective on the

454
00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:01,220
phenomenon it helps you to understand

455
00:21:07,610 --> 00:21:04,140
what's going on now and it helps you to

456
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,620
see that yes this does seem to be a bit

457
00:21:10,370 --> 00:21:09,360
of a cycle

458
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:10,380
um

459
00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:11,760
yeah

460
00:21:22,010 --> 00:21:16,620
point

461
00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:22,020
a lot the awareness got so big and so

462
00:21:27,529 --> 00:21:25,500
many came into this community uh you

463
00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:27,539
know through social media and networks

464
00:21:32,590 --> 00:21:29,940
and and so forth came into this

465
00:21:36,350 --> 00:21:32,600
community thinking that

466
00:21:39,169 --> 00:21:36,360
disclosure was going to happen in a day

467
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:39,179
or two right and here it is five years

468
00:21:45,049 --> 00:21:41,600
after the the

469
00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:45,059
famous uh front page story on the on the

470
00:21:50,770 --> 00:21:46,980
New York Times right the Pentagon has a

471
00:21:55,490 --> 00:21:50,780
secret UFO program and and that really

472
00:21:58,010 --> 00:21:55,500
raised the awareness and but those that

473
00:22:00,590 --> 00:21:58,020
are new to the community don't have a

474
00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:00,600
historical perspective they they don't

475
00:22:05,390 --> 00:22:01,980
understand what we have been through

476
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:05,400
before in this community right

477
00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:07,200
yeah they sure don't

478
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:10,860
and you know in some in some ways maybe

479
00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:12,720
that's a good thing you know come at it

480
00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:14,520
with a fresh set of eyes

481
00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:17,400
uh that are unbiased

482
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:19,080
um you know when I was writing my book

483
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:22,080
one my guiding principle in writing the

484
00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:24,720
close encounters man was I wanted to

485
00:22:29,810 --> 00:22:27,720
write a UFO book that you didn't have to

486
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:29,820
hide from people like in your in your

487
00:22:34,970 --> 00:22:32,240
beach bag uh

488
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:34,980
and I I considered that a worthwhile

489
00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:36,780
goal I think to a certain degree I

490
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:38,700
achieved it

491
00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:42,000
um I think it's very important that

492
00:22:46,909 --> 00:22:44,220
people be allowed to talk about and

493
00:22:48,350 --> 00:22:46,919
speculate about UFOs without fear of

494
00:22:50,990 --> 00:22:48,360
ridicule you know one of my favorite

495
00:22:52,970 --> 00:22:51,000
jail and heinek quotes is

496
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:52,980
ridicule is not part of the scientific

497
00:22:57,770 --> 00:22:55,200
method and and the American public

498
00:22:59,870 --> 00:22:57,780
should not be taught that it is and

499
00:23:02,570 --> 00:22:59,880
those those are kind of the words I live

500
00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:02,580
by if we're talking about UFOs it's got

501
00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:05,700
to be a ridicule-free Zone and I and I

502
00:23:09,409 --> 00:23:07,980
and I think that's become more common to

503
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:09,419
your point

504
00:23:13,210 --> 00:23:11,280
um it's become more common it's easier

505
00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:13,220
to talk in public about the phenomenon

506
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:15,840
there's there's much less fear I think

507
00:23:21,529 --> 00:23:19,200
of reprisal or ridicule or sarcasm it's

508
00:23:24,409 --> 00:23:21,539
still out there we all know that but I

509
00:23:27,610 --> 00:23:24,419
think that has gone down you know a few

510
00:23:31,789 --> 00:23:27,620
notches over the last several years

511
00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:31,799
with um uh the let's start at the

512
00:23:37,669 --> 00:23:35,100
beginning with heineck uh well his UFO

513
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:37,679
beginning I should say

514
00:23:45,529 --> 00:23:40,159
um project Grudge

515
00:23:49,130 --> 00:23:45,539
uh uh he got involved

516
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:49,140
um that's where we kind of the first to

517
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:52,020
you know understand his name and and and

518
00:23:56,570 --> 00:23:54,320
hear about him back with project Grudge

519
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,580
which uh we're talking about the late

520
00:24:00,529 --> 00:23:58,799
1940s

521
00:24:03,049 --> 00:24:00,539
um you just mentioned Close Encounters

522
00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:03,059
and so many associate Jay Alan heineck

523
00:24:09,529 --> 00:24:05,460
yeah with blue book but more of a modern

524
00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:09,539
context and and things uh but it goes

525
00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:11,580
back much farther than that doesn't it

526
00:24:16,669 --> 00:24:13,500
how

527
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:16,679
find him for Grudge well first I just I

528
00:24:21,289 --> 00:24:18,480
just want to just correct one thing it's

529
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:21,299
it actually started with project sign of

530
00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:23,820
signs yeah and then project sign turned

531
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:25,140
into project Grudge and then project

532
00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:27,840
Grudge begat Project Blue Book right

533
00:24:34,370 --> 00:24:31,500
right as as to how heinek got involved

534
00:24:36,529 --> 00:24:34,380
um it goes back to World War II

535
00:24:39,770 --> 00:24:36,539
during World War II pretty much every

536
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:39,780
able-bodied scientist physicist uh

537
00:24:44,149 --> 00:24:41,700
astronomer anybody

538
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:44,159
anybody who had a pulse any scientists

539
00:24:47,810 --> 00:24:45,960
who had a pulse basically got sucked

540
00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:47,820
into the war efforts

541
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,100
and heineck was no stranger to that he

542
00:24:57,049 --> 00:24:52,559
was he was um

543
00:24:59,570 --> 00:24:57,059
pulled into a project to develop a um

544
00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,580
a new type of fuse for guided missiles

545
00:25:03,529 --> 00:25:01,679
and it was ended up with you being used

546
00:25:06,549 --> 00:25:03,539
with the the atomic bombs that were

547
00:25:09,409 --> 00:25:06,559
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki

548
00:25:12,649 --> 00:25:09,419
a radio fuse

549
00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:12,659
that would send radio waves out in the

550
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:14,940
in ahead of the missile and they would

551
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:17,039
bounce back and you could set the

552
00:25:21,289 --> 00:25:18,480
missile to

553
00:25:22,610 --> 00:25:21,299
detonate at a certain distance from the

554
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,620
target

555
00:25:28,010 --> 00:25:24,799
so all of a sudden we could control

556
00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:28,020
actually where our missiles exploded and

557
00:25:33,049 --> 00:25:30,120
it resulted in a lot of saved lives on

558
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:33,059
our side and a lot a lot more

559
00:25:38,990 --> 00:25:36,120
um fatal hits on their side

560
00:25:42,169 --> 00:25:39,000
so heinek was involved in developing

561
00:25:45,769 --> 00:25:42,179
this this technology for World War II

562
00:25:47,630 --> 00:25:45,779
and he was actually in charge of um

563
00:25:49,850 --> 00:25:47,640
because this all had to do with radio

564
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:49,860
waves that was kind of his area of

565
00:25:55,909 --> 00:25:53,039
expertise when he was on this team so

566
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:55,919
fast forward a few years all of a sudden

567
00:26:03,049 --> 00:25:59,520
the Air Force has this UFO problem

568
00:26:05,690 --> 00:26:03,059
ever since Kenneth Arnold uh everybody's

569
00:26:07,789 --> 00:26:05,700
been seeing strange things in the sky

570
00:26:09,529 --> 00:26:07,799
and Reporting them to the local police

571
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:09,539
department or the local Air Force Base

572
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:11,279
and all of a sudden the Air Force has

573
00:26:16,190 --> 00:26:13,679
got this embarrassing problem of

574
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:16,200
trying to reassure the country

575
00:26:21,649 --> 00:26:19,320
that this isn't the threat while also

576
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:21,659
acknowledging that they actually have no

577
00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:23,279
idea what they're talking about they

578
00:26:27,769 --> 00:26:25,980
have no idea what we are dealing with

579
00:26:29,870 --> 00:26:27,779
so the Air Force has got this problem

580
00:26:32,210 --> 00:26:29,880
they're trying to explain these

581
00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:32,220
sightings away to come calm down the

582
00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:33,900
American public

583
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:35,700
they decide that they need to have a

584
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:37,679
credible scientist on part of their team

585
00:26:43,010 --> 00:26:41,520
to validate their findings

586
00:26:44,810 --> 00:26:43,020
um they approached a number of different

587
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:44,820
scientists I don't know the names of

588
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:47,100
them but they got turned down by

589
00:26:51,649 --> 00:26:49,440
everyone they talked to they ended up

590
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:51,659
finding this mild-mannered astronomer

591
00:26:57,649 --> 00:26:54,799
who lived just up the highway because

592
00:26:59,149 --> 00:26:57,659
project sign at the time was

593
00:27:02,390 --> 00:26:59,159
headquartered at Wright-Patterson Air

594
00:27:06,110 --> 00:27:02,400
Force Base in Ohio uh Nikon in Ohio so

595
00:27:07,370 --> 00:27:06,120
they go visit heineck at the Ohio State

596
00:27:09,230 --> 00:27:07,380
University

597
00:27:10,610 --> 00:27:09,240
and they say hey have you you know have

598
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:10,620
you heard about this UFO thing and

599
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,200
heinek says yeah it seems kind of silly

600
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,600
to me he said I think it's just

601
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:17,279
I think it's just people worried about

602
00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:18,960
another Pearl Harbor so they're just

603
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:21,000
imagining things I don't think it's

604
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:22,559
really a threat

605
00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:24,480
so that's where heinek comes into it and

606
00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:26,460
the Air Force says well we'd like to you

607
00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:28,320
know because you already have top secret

608
00:27:32,690 --> 00:27:29,940
clearance because of this work you did

609
00:27:35,330 --> 00:27:32,700
on the proximity fuse in World War II

610
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,340
you're a nice easy fit to our group at

611
00:27:39,049 --> 00:27:37,200
Wright-Patterson we'd like to have you

612
00:27:40,610 --> 00:27:39,059
you know just drive down to

613
00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:40,620
Wright-Patterson a couple days a month

614
00:27:45,529 --> 00:27:42,900
go through our stacks of UFO reports and

615
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:45,539
help us to decide which ones are

616
00:27:50,690 --> 00:27:47,760
actually just misidentifications of

617
00:27:52,430 --> 00:27:50,700
comets and meteors and the planet Venus

618
00:27:54,409 --> 00:27:52,440
and the star Arcturus

619
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:54,419
if you could clear that up for us that

620
00:27:59,269 --> 00:27:57,360
would be a huge help and heinek spelling

621
00:28:01,610 --> 00:27:59,279
okay I'm just kind of an instant

622
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:01,620
bystander but you know it sounds like

623
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:03,000
easy money

624
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:05,760
so he takes the job and he starts going

625
00:28:10,010 --> 00:28:07,679
down to right Patterson a couple times a

626
00:28:12,649 --> 00:28:10,020
month and he gets the latest stack of

627
00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:12,659
UFO reports dropped in front of him on

628
00:28:16,010 --> 00:28:13,980
his desk

629
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:16,020
and he starts going through them and you

630
00:28:21,529 --> 00:28:18,000
know he's got his star charts and his

631
00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:21,539
immense knowledge of heavenly bodies and

632
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:23,820
it's really easy for him to go through

633
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,480
these reports and say yeah this is this

634
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:29,520
is a sun dog yeah this is just a

635
00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:32,340
reflection off of an airplane yeah this

636
00:28:36,909 --> 00:28:34,020
is just a comment

637
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:36,919
um so Heidi's able to explain about 80

638
00:28:42,049 --> 00:28:39,840
of the cases

639
00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:42,059
and at that point you know he's still

640
00:28:46,549 --> 00:28:43,919
very new to this he's not taking it very

641
00:28:49,490 --> 00:28:46,559
seriously and he's actually very pleased

642
00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:49,500
that he's able to explain away 80 he

643
00:28:52,490 --> 00:28:50,940
thinks he's doing really well he thinks

644
00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:52,500
he's earning his paycheck with the Air

645
00:29:00,169 --> 00:28:55,500
Force basically right

646
00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:00,179
well after project sign closes

647
00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:02,460
turns into project Grudge heinek is

648
00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:04,740
actually not involved with project

649
00:29:09,169 --> 00:29:07,320
Grudge he just went back to teaching for

650
00:29:10,190 --> 00:29:09,179
a while and kind of forgot about the UFO

651
00:29:13,130 --> 00:29:10,200
thing

652
00:29:17,570 --> 00:29:13,140
then a couple years later the Air Force

653
00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:17,580
comes uh knocking on his door again and

654
00:29:22,669 --> 00:29:20,760
says uh hey we need to uh

655
00:29:24,169 --> 00:29:22,679
we need to keep dealing with this UFO

656
00:29:26,210 --> 00:29:24,179
thing and you're the only guy we can

657
00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:26,220
find basically who was involved last

658
00:29:30,430 --> 00:29:28,440
time so you know would you come back and

659
00:29:33,710 --> 00:29:30,440
work for us again

660
00:29:35,930 --> 00:29:33,720
once again it just feels like well sure

661
00:29:38,450 --> 00:29:35,940
that was like the easiest job in the

662
00:29:40,789 --> 00:29:38,460
world easy money so heineck goes back to

663
00:29:42,350 --> 00:29:40,799
work for them starts commuting back to

664
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:42,360
the right Patterson a couple times a

665
00:29:48,169 --> 00:29:45,600
month and what year was 45. well this

666
00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:48,179
was 51.

667
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:50,220
no I think we're still in the late 40s

668
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:53,039
we're only like for 1948 Lincoln 49.

669
00:29:58,490 --> 00:29:56,399
okay okay okay so so he goes back to

670
00:29:59,810 --> 00:29:58,500
work he starts he starts going back to

671
00:30:03,110 --> 00:29:59,820
Wright-Patterson and going through the

672
00:30:05,330 --> 00:30:03,120
UFO files and lo and behold

673
00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:05,340
he finds he's coming up with the exact

674
00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:08,580
same ratio he can explain 80 percent and

675
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:10,500
he can't explain the remaining 20

676
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,760
percent

677
00:30:17,090 --> 00:30:14,159
just like with project sign a year or

678
00:30:19,909 --> 00:30:17,100
two earlier so now he's got a pattern

679
00:30:22,190 --> 00:30:19,919
you know to a scientist that's like hey

680
00:30:24,110 --> 00:30:22,200
I'm paying attention to this I see a

681
00:30:27,649 --> 00:30:24,120
pattern here

682
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:27,659
why do we have this consistent 20 of

683
00:30:31,250 --> 00:30:29,039
these sightings that we can't explain

684
00:30:33,529 --> 00:30:31,260
maybe there's something going on there

685
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:33,539
that was just enough to pique Dr

686
00:30:38,210 --> 00:30:35,880
heineck's curiosity to get him

687
00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:38,220
interested in looking deeper into the

688
00:30:42,049 --> 00:30:40,500
phenomena it's not as though I mean we

689
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:42,059
we like to say and even I do this

690
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:43,500
sometimes too we like to say that well

691
00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:45,600
heinek changed his mind you know he had

692
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:49,200
a you know he he you know reversed

693
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:51,120
course what however you want to describe

694
00:30:56,570 --> 00:30:53,820
it it wasn't really that dramatic it was

695
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:56,580
just more of a hey I'm noticing

696
00:31:01,310 --> 00:30:59,279
something weird in this data

697
00:31:03,649 --> 00:31:01,320
I think it Bears a closer inspection

698
00:31:08,210 --> 00:31:03,659
that's how he got into it

699
00:31:10,970 --> 00:31:08,220
and uh so project Grudge okay so uh 49

700
00:31:16,669 --> 00:31:10,980
1950

701
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:16,679
um and I I am sure that I can't wait to

702
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,200
hear your answer on this but nobody

703
00:31:24,169 --> 00:31:22,080
expected what was going to happen over

704
00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:24,179
the next two or three years uh when it

705
00:31:30,649 --> 00:31:28,260
came to UFOs and headlines and sightings

706
00:31:33,649 --> 00:31:30,659
uh around the world and here in the

707
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:33,659
United States and and what was about to

708
00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:36,000
happen they were still two years away

709
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:40,380
from 1952 and and Washington DC which

710
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:45,600
was you know a a very crazy event

711
00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:50,340
um was he aware of it or did he think

712
00:31:56,269 --> 00:31:52,760
that this was going to remain

713
00:31:58,970 --> 00:31:56,279
uh mainly a government program and he

714
00:32:02,810 --> 00:31:58,980
was going to assist on identifying this

715
00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:02,820
but where it wouldn't consume

716
00:32:08,330 --> 00:32:05,580
you know the population and pop culture

717
00:32:09,710 --> 00:32:08,340
and the media and and the newspapers and

718
00:32:12,049 --> 00:32:09,720
the radios and everything else that

719
00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:12,059
happened uh over the next two or three

720
00:32:17,149 --> 00:32:14,820
years was he aware of that

721
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,159
oh he was definitely aware he was also

722
00:32:21,710 --> 00:32:19,200
very surprised

723
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,720
um he he really he really seriously

724
00:32:24,889 --> 00:32:23,279
thought and I think it was a reasonable

725
00:32:26,450 --> 00:32:24,899
thought he really seriously thought that

726
00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:26,460
people were still

727
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:29,460
paranoid after the sneak attack at Pearl

728
00:32:34,190 --> 00:32:31,320
Harbor

729
00:32:36,490 --> 00:32:34,200
um in those years late 40s early 1950s

730
00:32:39,289 --> 00:32:36,500
all of a sudden we had to worry about

731
00:32:41,389 --> 00:32:39,299
InterContinental missiles being launched

732
00:32:43,789 --> 00:32:41,399
from Russia flying over the North Pole

733
00:32:46,669 --> 00:32:43,799
and bearing down on the United States

734
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:46,679
that was a very real threat and a very

735
00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:49,919
real fear among the American public and

736
00:32:53,690 --> 00:32:52,740
if the public lost faith in the Air

737
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:53,700
Force

738
00:32:58,690 --> 00:32:56,760
uh in that context that would not be a

739
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:58,700
very good thing for the Air Force at all

740
00:33:03,049 --> 00:33:01,440
uh and unfortunately a lot of people did

741
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:03,059
start to lose faith in the Air Force

742
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:05,279
because of their ridiculous approach to

743
00:33:09,769 --> 00:33:07,200
these UFO sightings trying to explain

744
00:33:11,570 --> 00:33:09,779
everything away as a as a hoax or a

745
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:11,580
mirage or a Mis you know mistaken

746
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,679
identity so heineck was aware of all

747
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,360
this and and

748
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:17,760
and he was a willing participant I mean

749
00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:20,640
you know he he was very happy to do this

750
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,260
work for the Air Force like I said it

751
00:33:26,990 --> 00:33:25,200
was extra money for him it was fairly

752
00:33:28,970 --> 00:33:27,000
easy work because to him it was like

753
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,980
Elementary it's so easy to tell what

754
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:30,240
these things are that people are

755
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,600
reporting on so yeah he knew about it

756
00:33:37,850 --> 00:33:35,760
but this was also his transition period

757
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:37,860
right he had had like I said he had that

758
00:33:43,549 --> 00:33:40,080
Revelation about the 20 of Unsolved

759
00:33:45,649 --> 00:33:43,559
cases that really hit him like a hammer

760
00:33:48,169 --> 00:33:45,659
um and then he start you know he started

761
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:48,179
sort of paying closer attention to those

762
00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:50,820
tough cases you know the cases that he

763
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:52,320
couldn't explain and he would sort of

764
00:33:55,850 --> 00:33:54,120
set those aside and try to get back from

765
00:33:57,409 --> 00:33:55,860
later because

766
00:33:59,330 --> 00:33:57,419
um you know he really started thinking

767
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:59,340
seriously well this is a scientific

768
00:34:02,810 --> 00:34:00,419
problem

769
00:34:05,330 --> 00:34:02,820
it calls for a scientific investigation

770
00:34:07,789 --> 00:34:05,340
which means we need to start collecting

771
00:34:09,770 --> 00:34:07,799
you know data about the phenomenon so

772
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:09,780
that we can actually start studying this

773
00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:12,480
and he had when he had this one handicap

774
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:14,700
how do you study something that's here

775
00:34:20,089 --> 00:34:17,040
one second and it's gone the next

776
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:20,099
and um so you know heineck would say you

777
00:34:22,970 --> 00:34:21,599
know you can

778
00:34:24,250 --> 00:34:22,980
we can't

779
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:24,260
um

780
00:34:29,389 --> 00:34:26,879
we can't study a tornado while it's

781
00:34:31,790 --> 00:34:29,399
happening we can only examine and we can

782
00:34:34,369 --> 00:34:31,800
only experiment with what's left behind

783
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,379
after the damage is done these like UFO

784
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:36,480
cases are the same way we never get a

785
00:34:41,149 --> 00:34:38,159
chance to actually get our hands on them

786
00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:41,159
all we can really study is what happens

787
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:43,020
afterwards or what they've left behind

788
00:34:47,050 --> 00:34:45,599
so that that was the situation heineck

789
00:34:49,730 --> 00:34:47,060
found himself in does that sound

790
00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:49,740
self-contradictory yes very much so he

791
00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:51,960
was still wrestling with a lot of doubts

792
00:34:58,970 --> 00:34:54,300
it's the same thing we're wrestling with

793
00:35:03,230 --> 00:34:58,980
still today and it's 2023. in uh the TV

794
00:35:08,650 --> 00:35:03,240
show uh uh Project Blue Book which

795
00:35:12,829 --> 00:35:08,660
I 100 thoroughly enjoyed and I also 100

796
00:35:17,329 --> 00:35:12,839
thoroughly enjoyed the artistic license

797
00:35:19,069 --> 00:35:17,339
right so yeah I've talked to I've talked

798
00:35:21,650 --> 00:35:19,079
to Paul about this I've talked to others

799
00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:21,660
about this talked to people that worked

800
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:22,800
on the show

801
00:35:27,290 --> 00:35:24,000
um about this

802
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:27,300
so entertainment's entertainment I was

803
00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:31,440
fully entertained by the show but here's

804
00:35:37,849 --> 00:35:33,300
the thing

805
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:37,859
okay I'm not saying that J Allen heineck

806
00:35:41,930 --> 00:35:39,119
witnessed

807
00:35:43,730 --> 00:35:41,940
alien bodies growing in tubes you know

808
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:43,740
or whatever you know underground secret

809
00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:47,760
bases or got shot at uh while he was in

810
00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:50,760
a P-51 Mustang or what whatever was

811
00:35:54,770 --> 00:35:53,460
dramatized to the show I'm not saying

812
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:54,780
that

813
00:36:01,910 --> 00:35:58,560
um but what the show did point out in

814
00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:01,920
those instances where he Witnesses

815
00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:03,900
something he sees something he's a part

816
00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:07,140
of something but then he's told to say

817
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:10,140
something else to lie about it to say

818
00:36:16,730 --> 00:36:13,920
something else and that was one of the

819
00:36:18,170 --> 00:36:16,740
complex things psychologically and

820
00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:18,180
personally that he had to deal with

821
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:22,079
right where the data and the evidence is

822
00:36:27,109 --> 00:36:24,960
saying one thing but he is told to do

823
00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:27,119
another and he had to deal with that

824
00:36:30,770 --> 00:36:28,740
didn't he

825
00:36:33,770 --> 00:36:30,780
yeah he had to deal with that for the

826
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:33,780
entire you know nearly 20 years that he

827
00:36:38,450 --> 00:36:36,240
was employed by the Air Force as their

828
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:38,460
UFO consultant he absolutely had to deal

829
00:36:43,210 --> 00:36:41,280
with that on a regular basis I don't

830
00:36:46,510 --> 00:36:43,220
share your feelings about that TV show

831
00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:46,520
uh or the artistic license I'm going to

832
00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:49,140
completely disagree with you there but

833
00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:50,760
look at it from my point of view I've

834
00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:52,940
just spent the last couple of years

835
00:36:57,170 --> 00:36:55,320
researching this guy's life trying to

836
00:36:59,569 --> 00:36:57,180
and there's a lot of misunderstandings

837
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,579
about him and his work right and I put

838
00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:01,920
all this work into trying to correct his

839
00:37:05,810 --> 00:37:03,420
story so that people would understand

840
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:05,820
the real heineck and here this show

841
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:07,560
comes out that just throws out

842
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:10,079
everything factual and makes everything

843
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:13,440
up I know I know I know look look Mark

844
00:37:20,089 --> 00:37:17,280
trust me trust me I'm I'm watching I'm

845
00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:20,099
just like oh come on really are you

846
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:21,960
doing this are you really doing this

847
00:37:35,470 --> 00:37:26,460
yeah I'll just say Mimi Mimi heinek was

848
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:37,849
all right

849
00:37:42,050 --> 00:37:40,320
hi Nick disinformation I'll just throw

850
00:37:44,089 --> 00:37:42,060
this in because this reminds me of when

851
00:37:46,910 --> 00:37:44,099
I was researching the book

852
00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:46,920
um and writing the book I I had to deal

853
00:37:51,650 --> 00:37:49,020
with a couple of strange situations and

854
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:51,660
one of them was this guy contacts me out

855
00:37:54,349 --> 00:37:53,280
of the blue I've never heard of him

856
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:54,359
before

857
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:56,880
he claims that he worked for Dr heinek

858
00:38:01,550 --> 00:37:58,740
at his Center for UFO studies for

859
00:38:03,349 --> 00:38:01,560
several years in like the early 1980s

860
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:03,359
and he says I just think you need to

861
00:38:07,370 --> 00:38:05,040
know this part of the story he goes when

862
00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:07,380
jail and heineck moved down to Arizona

863
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:10,200
in the early 1980s

864
00:38:14,450 --> 00:38:12,720
his wife did not come with him Jay Hal

865
00:38:17,450 --> 00:38:14,460
and heineck moved to Arizona with a

866
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,460
young co-ed that he was teaching at

867
00:38:21,050 --> 00:38:19,440
Northwestern University

868
00:38:22,430 --> 00:38:21,060
he said I just wanted to make sure

869
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:22,440
you're aware of that and I was kind of

870
00:38:26,210 --> 00:38:24,480
like uh okay well I've never heard that

871
00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:26,220
story before can you give me some

872
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:27,780
validation is there someone else I can

873
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:30,240
talk to who can validate the story

874
00:38:35,150 --> 00:38:32,940
and guess what of course he couldn't

875
00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:35,160
and I'm kind of like well I'm not

876
00:38:40,490 --> 00:38:37,740
putting it in my book you can't validate

877
00:38:42,890 --> 00:38:40,500
it I talked to several of heinek's

878
00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:42,900
long-term colleagues and ran that story

879
00:38:47,450 --> 00:38:44,940
past them and they all basically laughed

880
00:38:49,849 --> 00:38:47,460
their asses off and said that is

881
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:49,859
absolutely not true so stuff like that

882
00:38:55,730 --> 00:38:52,560
does happen but with the TV show it was

883
00:38:59,810 --> 00:38:55,740
you know over the top did you talk to

884
00:39:01,069 --> 00:38:59,820
Paul at all oh yeah yeah I yeah I had a

885
00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:01,079
couple of really nice long interviews

886
00:39:04,849 --> 00:39:03,480
with Paul he told me the the the parts

887
00:39:07,550 --> 00:39:04,859
of the book where you sort of get a

888
00:39:09,230 --> 00:39:07,560
glimpse of their home life

889
00:39:10,970 --> 00:39:09,240
um that's all from my interviews with

890
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:10,980
Paul he told me some really wonderful

891
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:12,560
stories

892
00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:15,240
really appreciated

893
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,740
um how much he was willing to share with

894
00:39:20,450 --> 00:39:18,240
me for the book it was really it was

895
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:20,460
really great yeah Paul's really open

896
00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:24,720
about all of it and and I asked Paul uh

897
00:39:31,069 --> 00:39:27,119
I did ask him about the the Russian

898
00:39:32,810 --> 00:39:31,079
lesbian lover seduction thing

899
00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:32,820
um and I said are you okay with that

900
00:39:38,089 --> 00:39:34,560
because man you know I'm not in control

901
00:39:40,970 --> 00:39:38,099
of it it sure is funny though and it's

902
00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:40,980
it's okay all right it's drama

903
00:39:48,770 --> 00:39:44,880
um I I if it was my mom I I don't know

904
00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:48,780
how I would have reacted but but and you

905
00:39:53,089 --> 00:39:51,300
know what can you do you know you're you

906
00:39:56,089 --> 00:39:53,099
you can't do a whole lot about it but

907
00:39:59,690 --> 00:39:56,099
this is this is the thing that I asked

908
00:40:03,290 --> 00:39:59,700
Paul about and uh about his dad

909
00:40:06,410 --> 00:40:03,300
I said because Paul is one of the he's

910
00:40:10,430 --> 00:40:06,420
super smart he's like ridiculously

911
00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:10,440
intelligent but his sense of humor

912
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:14,460
and his timing of Comedy

913
00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:18,060
he you know he may be a professor of

914
00:40:23,690 --> 00:40:20,820
whatever a Pepperdine and and doing his

915
00:40:25,450 --> 00:40:23,700
thing right now but he may have missed

916
00:40:28,310 --> 00:40:25,460
his calling he could have done stand up

917
00:40:30,650 --> 00:40:28,320
I'm not kidding right he's exactly right

918
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,660
I love that idea and and I said to Paul

919
00:40:34,730 --> 00:40:32,880
I said where did you get that Paul and I

920
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:34,740
we're at a bar somewhere and we're

921
00:40:41,690 --> 00:40:37,920
goofing around and and this particular

922
00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:41,700
day we were we happened we we were

923
00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:48,890
I mean like he's custom and I was like

924
00:40:55,010 --> 00:40:51,480
dude what what I I almost went up to my

925
00:40:59,089 --> 00:40:55,020
room and changed we had the same brand

926
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:59,099
same color dress shirt that was sitting

927
00:41:03,890 --> 00:41:01,680
together and anyway so we were laughing

928
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:03,900
about that I said um where'd you get

929
00:41:08,089 --> 00:41:06,000
your sense of humor man seriously he

930
00:41:09,370 --> 00:41:08,099
said my dad

931
00:41:10,970 --> 00:41:09,380
and

932
00:41:15,410 --> 00:41:10,980
really

933
00:41:17,810 --> 00:41:15,420
now in your research did did they hear

934
00:41:20,030 --> 00:41:17,820
did this comedic side of Jay Allen

935
00:41:23,210 --> 00:41:20,040
heineck ever surface

936
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:23,220
sometimes yeah I I would say he would he

937
00:41:27,470 --> 00:41:25,440
as far as I could tell he was a little

938
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:27,480
bit guarded about it for fear of not

939
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:30,240
being taken seriously right but I was I

940
00:41:35,210 --> 00:41:31,680
was told

941
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:35,220
one joke that heineck loves to tell I'm

942
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:36,660
not going to repeat it here because it's

943
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:39,720
incredibly racist it was a real it was a

944
00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:42,300
real product of its time

945
00:41:48,050 --> 00:41:45,300
um it made me laugh but it as it made me

946
00:41:51,170 --> 00:41:48,060
laugh I also was realizing that yes this

947
00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:51,180
is very this joke is very inappropriate

948
00:41:56,170 --> 00:41:52,740
um but here's the other side of it

949
00:41:59,170 --> 00:41:56,180
though he kept a file of

950
00:42:01,430 --> 00:41:59,180
newspaper cartoons that made fun of him

951
00:42:03,470 --> 00:42:01,440
and that that's what I thought was

952
00:42:05,150 --> 00:42:03,480
really interesting he had not only did

953
00:42:07,609 --> 00:42:05,160
he have a good sense of humor he had a

954
00:42:10,250 --> 00:42:07,619
good sense of humor about himself you

955
00:42:12,290 --> 00:42:10,260
know he was able to laugh at himself and

956
00:42:14,210 --> 00:42:12,300
when these you know he would he had a

957
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:14,220
huge binder just filled with newspaper

958
00:42:19,250 --> 00:42:17,880
clippings with with cartoons about UFOs

959
00:42:22,370 --> 00:42:19,260
and about him

960
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:22,380
and he cherished those cartoons you know

961
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,200
he he thought they were funny he was he

962
00:42:29,329 --> 00:42:27,359
was like I think he was actually really

963
00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:29,339
proud of the fact that he had collected

964
00:42:33,470 --> 00:42:31,020
all these cartoons

965
00:42:35,450 --> 00:42:33,480
poking fun of his work he really enjoyed

966
00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:35,460
it

967
00:42:44,690 --> 00:42:40,440
um I have uh uh mentioned on the air uh

968
00:42:47,569 --> 00:42:44,700
probably once a week over the last year

969
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:47,579
um his book from 1977 all right the

970
00:42:55,970 --> 00:42:51,359
report on UFOs in Project Blue Book and

971
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:55,980
um and how much uh I I I regret I had

972
00:43:00,050 --> 00:42:58,079
read it years ago

973
00:43:03,410 --> 00:43:00,060
I just kind of put it away

974
00:43:06,650 --> 00:43:03,420
and and it didn't hit me like it hits me

975
00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:06,660
now now it's one of my reference guides

976
00:43:11,150 --> 00:43:09,960
I am constantly pulling it up and it's

977
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:11,160
not

978
00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:14,640
the the historical perspective and uh on

979
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,740
specific cases that he points out in the

980
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:18,480
book that he had trouble with over the

981
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:21,660
years is extraordinary in of itself

982
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:26,160
but there's a philosophical thing that

983
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:28,160
is going on with the book

984
00:43:34,609 --> 00:43:32,160
and and I need that balance right and

985
00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:34,619
and I get that from it but the book was

986
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,940
written in 1977. it's almost 50 years

987
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:40,560
old

988
00:43:46,010 --> 00:43:44,400
um and he died like eight years later or

989
00:43:49,490 --> 00:43:46,020
something like that he died in the early

990
00:43:52,250 --> 00:43:49,500
80s 80 84 85 something like that

991
00:43:53,870 --> 00:43:52,260
um there are 86 yeah that sounds right

992
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:53,880
so

993
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:55,200
the the

994
00:44:01,370 --> 00:43:55,920
um

995
00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:01,380
uh was it a book that he felt a need to

996
00:44:05,089 --> 00:44:02,240
write

997
00:44:07,309 --> 00:44:05,099
you know like a deathbed confession he

998
00:44:10,609 --> 00:44:07,319
was he wasn't dead yet you know what I

999
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:10,619
mean but that's almost what it was where

1000
00:44:19,130 --> 00:44:15,119
he needed to uh philosophically right

1001
00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:19,140
find that balance that that existential

1002
00:44:24,050 --> 00:44:22,500
fight that he had been dealing with uh

1003
00:44:26,750 --> 00:44:24,060
for so long

1004
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,760
um and the book is an angry book uh do

1005
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:28,800
you get the same thing he had gotten to

1006
00:44:33,530 --> 00:44:30,960
that point in his life

1007
00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:33,540
yeah I think I again I think you're spot

1008
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:35,700
on he um and I like to put it in the

1009
00:44:40,849 --> 00:44:38,940
context of his his first book the UFO

1010
00:44:44,809 --> 00:44:40,859
experience

1011
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:44,819
which is all about the human factor in

1012
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:47,280
in that first book beautiful experience

1013
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:49,520
he talks a lot about the human factor

1014
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:53,040
how a UFO event affects a person how

1015
00:44:56,089 --> 00:44:54,720
does it affect their

1016
00:44:59,450 --> 00:44:56,099
how does it affect them mentally

1017
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:59,460
emotionally spiritually that book is

1018
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:01,680
really really fascinating in that regard

1019
00:45:06,589 --> 00:45:03,839
so that was the first book that was set

1020
00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:06,599
in 1973. the next one you're talking

1021
00:45:10,450 --> 00:45:09,060
about the high neck UFO

1022
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:10,460
um report

1023
00:45:16,490 --> 00:45:14,520
uh 1977 totally different approach to

1024
00:45:17,950 --> 00:45:16,500
the phenomenon the second book was

1025
00:45:20,990 --> 00:45:17,960
really like

1026
00:45:23,150 --> 00:45:21,000
I'm going to tell you how bad Project

1027
00:45:25,550 --> 00:45:23,160
Blue Book really was you know that's

1028
00:45:27,950 --> 00:45:25,560
really what that book is to me

1029
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:27,960
and and that's what he does he goes

1030
00:45:30,829 --> 00:45:28,980
through for I don't know how many

1031
00:45:32,809 --> 00:45:30,839
hundreds of pages long that book is but

1032
00:45:34,970 --> 00:45:32,819
he basically eviscerates Project Blue

1033
00:45:36,829 --> 00:45:34,980
Book says this is what they did wrong

1034
00:45:39,410 --> 00:45:36,839
this is how they should have done things

1035
00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:39,420
this is how I would have done things

1036
00:45:44,089 --> 00:45:41,640
and if I had been allowed to do things

1037
00:45:46,430 --> 00:45:44,099
my way we'd be in a much different place

1038
00:45:50,270 --> 00:45:46,440
than we are right now so yeah that book

1039
00:45:51,890 --> 00:45:50,280
is the both of those books are are to me

1040
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:51,900
um you know they're companion pieces I

1041
00:45:56,569 --> 00:45:53,720
think they should both be read together

1042
00:45:59,210 --> 00:45:56,579
and they're they're just amazing amazing

1043
00:46:02,390 --> 00:45:59,220
insights into a brilliant mind but also

1044
00:46:04,609 --> 00:46:02,400
a really mind-expanding view of this

1045
00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:04,619
phenomenon I love those books

1046
00:46:12,290 --> 00:46:08,160
he says in the very beginning

1047
00:46:14,569 --> 00:46:12,300
um of the report 1977.

1048
00:46:16,250 --> 00:46:14,579
um I don't know if it's like page one or

1049
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:16,260
two or the forward or whatever but in

1050
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:18,720
the very very beginning of the book

1051
00:46:26,690 --> 00:46:22,560
he says these I'm paraphrasing of course

1052
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:26,700
he says the one thing that we needed to

1053
00:46:33,170 --> 00:46:31,200
do then we still need to do now is we

1054
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:33,180
need science

1055
00:46:39,710 --> 00:46:36,960
we have to apply the science we never

1056
00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:39,720
did and we're not doing it now that's

1057
00:46:43,849 --> 00:46:41,940
just the exact same argument we're

1058
00:46:46,609 --> 00:46:43,859
having in 2023

1059
00:46:49,309 --> 00:46:46,619
it's the same statements coming from Avi

1060
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:49,319
Loeb and these were words written by J

1061
00:46:53,870 --> 00:46:52,020
Allen heineck in 1977 who was part of

1062
00:46:56,450 --> 00:46:53,880
project sign and Grudge and blue book

1063
00:47:00,410 --> 00:46:56,460
and and researched everything for the

1064
00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:00,420
Air Force until 1969. I mean things

1065
00:47:08,450 --> 00:47:04,500
don't change it it appears uh so was he

1066
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:08,460
yelling about science in 1952 was he the

1067
00:47:14,270 --> 00:47:11,160
only scientist there was it nothing but

1068
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:14,280
you know the military and three-letter

1069
00:47:18,829 --> 00:47:16,380
agencies around him that he was fighting

1070
00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:18,839
and and he was the only one trying to

1071
00:47:24,530 --> 00:47:22,160
apply the scientific method

1072
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:24,540
well yes and no

1073
00:47:28,730 --> 00:47:26,280
you admitted you had mentioned before

1074
00:47:31,870 --> 00:47:28,740
what an important year 1952 was for the

1075
00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:31,880
UFO phenomenon it was also important

1076
00:47:37,550 --> 00:47:35,760
1952 was also important because

1077
00:47:40,190 --> 00:47:37,560
um that was the year in which heinek

1078
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:40,200
sort of came out from undercover and

1079
00:47:46,550 --> 00:47:43,200
publicly called for a scientific

1080
00:47:48,890 --> 00:47:46,560
uh uh look a scientific approach

1081
00:47:51,470 --> 00:47:48,900
at the UFO phenomenon and he made this

1082
00:47:54,609 --> 00:47:51,480
he made this plea in front of a

1083
00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:54,619
Convention of fellow scientists it was a

1084
00:48:00,170 --> 00:47:57,900
1952 meeting of the American I think the

1085
00:48:03,890 --> 00:48:00,180
American Optical Society

1086
00:48:06,650 --> 00:48:03,900
and heineck was one of three speakers at

1087
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:06,660
this at this conference the first two

1088
00:48:12,050 --> 00:48:08,760
speakers uh one of which was Donald

1089
00:48:14,809 --> 00:48:12,060
Menzel who I know yeah a lot of us know

1090
00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:14,819
is like the number one UFO bad guy of

1091
00:48:20,510 --> 00:48:17,880
all time uh so one one of the professors

1092
00:48:22,430 --> 00:48:20,520
was Donald Menzel can't remember who the

1093
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:22,440
second one was but the third one was

1094
00:48:27,470 --> 00:48:24,780
Jalen heineck and nobody knew who heinek

1095
00:48:28,970 --> 00:48:27,480
was in 1952. everybody knew Menzel he

1096
00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:28,980
was a big wheel in the scientific world

1097
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:31,020
everybody knew the other guy he was also

1098
00:48:36,050 --> 00:48:32,160
a big wheel

1099
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:36,060
then heineck comes up on stage nobody

1100
00:48:40,970 --> 00:48:37,920
really knows who he is he's just this

1101
00:48:42,650 --> 00:48:40,980
he's this junior Professor from Ohio

1102
00:48:45,950 --> 00:48:42,660
nobody really knows what he's going to

1103
00:48:48,349 --> 00:48:45,960
say and he he gets up on the on the uh

1104
00:48:50,750 --> 00:48:48,359
Deus and he starts saying hey folks this

1105
00:48:53,630 --> 00:48:50,760
is for Real those first two talks you

1106
00:48:55,130 --> 00:48:53,640
just heard uh those guys need to put a

1107
00:48:56,750 --> 00:48:55,140
lot more thought into how they're

1108
00:48:59,150 --> 00:48:56,760
approaching this because their approach

1109
00:49:02,510 --> 00:48:59,160
is all wrong you can't approach it in

1110
00:49:06,230 --> 00:49:02,520
such a as such a dismissive style

1111
00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:06,240
he said he and so again 1952 Heinen

1112
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:07,920
comes out from undercover goes public

1113
00:49:13,609 --> 00:49:10,980
with his belief that a scientific study

1114
00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:13,619
is needed for us to understand this

1115
00:49:17,630 --> 00:49:15,960
uh and it goes you know outside of that

1116
00:49:19,730 --> 00:49:17,640
Gathering of Sciences it goes largely

1117
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:19,740
unnoticed

1118
00:49:26,089 --> 00:49:22,800
and I want to really emphasize heinek

1119
00:49:27,890 --> 00:49:26,099
was really really taking a chance here

1120
00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:27,900
like I said he was just this junior

1121
00:49:34,970 --> 00:49:31,800
Professor from Ohio State nobody knew

1122
00:49:38,270 --> 00:49:34,980
who he was and he gets up he gets up at

1123
00:49:40,190 --> 00:49:38,280
this convention and he says those two

1124
00:49:43,069 --> 00:49:40,200
scientific heavyweights you just heard

1125
00:49:44,750 --> 00:49:43,079
from they're wrong can you imagine the

1126
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,760
courage it took for heinek to get up

1127
00:49:50,750 --> 00:49:46,640
there and say that it's just amazing

1128
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:50,760
well and out of frustration uh so yeah

1129
00:49:58,490 --> 00:49:55,200
yeah and and so back to um the reason

1130
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:58,500
why I asked that did he feel that he was

1131
00:50:03,309 --> 00:50:01,440
a man on his own Island right and he

1132
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:03,319
wasn't getting that support

1133
00:50:09,530 --> 00:50:06,960
you can be a a in his case you know

1134
00:50:12,170 --> 00:50:09,540
astronomy and and and and and get into

1135
00:50:15,170 --> 00:50:12,180
astrophysics and and understand a star

1136
00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:15,180
chart uh which he did

1137
00:50:19,309 --> 00:50:17,640
um but the the the other part of you

1138
00:50:22,010 --> 00:50:19,319
need assistance you need other people

1139
00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:22,020
you need other input you need to apply

1140
00:50:27,170 --> 00:50:24,660
there's just so much work to do and that

1141
00:50:31,970 --> 00:50:27,180
there wasn't any computers you know this

1142
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:31,980
was a manual job back then and it you

1143
00:50:36,829 --> 00:50:33,839
know and he must have just out of

1144
00:50:39,710 --> 00:50:36,839
frustration so he was like I said he was

1145
00:50:42,770 --> 00:50:39,720
surrounded by everybody else that was

1146
00:50:44,270 --> 00:50:42,780
non-scientific right and and he was the

1147
00:50:46,609 --> 00:50:44,280
only one

1148
00:50:48,170 --> 00:50:46,619
um at Wright-Patt that had the

1149
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:48,180
scientific background

1150
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,559
yeah but he also worked to change that

1151
00:50:57,290 --> 00:50:54,960
because he he definitely felt the way

1152
00:50:58,730 --> 00:50:57,300
you're describing he wasn't getting any

1153
00:51:01,250 --> 00:50:58,740
support from the scientific Community

1154
00:51:02,270 --> 00:51:01,260
but he needed somebody to support him in

1155
00:51:05,930 --> 00:51:02,280
this

1156
00:51:07,130 --> 00:51:05,940
so he did end up in different ways sort

1157
00:51:08,410 --> 00:51:07,140
of

1158
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:08,420
um

1159
00:51:13,609 --> 00:51:11,280
finding talented people who understood

1160
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:13,619
what he was talking about who were

1161
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:16,079
willing to work with him on this one of

1162
00:51:20,569 --> 00:51:18,960
those was Jacques valet who you know

1163
00:51:22,849 --> 00:51:20,579
that's a name I'm sure all of us

1164
00:51:24,829 --> 00:51:22,859
recognize one of them was Jack fillet

1165
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:24,839
there were a couple other people who

1166
00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:27,720
sort of entered heinx orbit as he was

1167
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:29,880
teaching at astronomy at Northwestern

1168
00:51:34,010 --> 00:51:32,400
University in fact I'm glad this has

1169
00:51:36,530 --> 00:51:34,020
come up because I do have a new project

1170
00:51:39,170 --> 00:51:36,540
that I wanted to talk about

1171
00:51:42,290 --> 00:51:39,180
I've started a series of sub-stack

1172
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:42,300
Articles called UFO Legends

1173
00:51:47,329 --> 00:51:45,599
and it's all about interview material

1174
00:51:50,569 --> 00:51:47,339
that I have from when I wrote my book

1175
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:50,579
that didn't make it into the book I had

1176
00:52:01,250 --> 00:51:54,720
thousands of words hundreds of pages of

1177
00:52:03,530 --> 00:52:01,260
really fun amazing UFO lore and UFO data

1178
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:03,540
that there just wasn't room for it in

1179
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:05,280
the book and I've been sitting in all

1180
00:52:10,490 --> 00:52:08,220
this material we just last week we

1181
00:52:13,549 --> 00:52:10,500
celebrated the sixth anniversary of my

1182
00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:13,559
book being published so for six year

1183
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,660
anniversary so for six years I've been

1184
00:52:19,730 --> 00:52:18,000
sitting on all this unused material from

1185
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:19,740
all these people who

1186
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:22,800
very few people know about

1187
00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:24,240
um so I'm posting these interview

1188
00:52:30,170 --> 00:52:27,480
transcripts on substack as UFO Legends

1189
00:52:31,730 --> 00:52:30,180
and and the first two I've done are two

1190
00:52:33,530 --> 00:52:31,740
people who are what we're just talking

1191
00:52:36,109 --> 00:52:33,540
about they're people that heineck sort

1192
00:52:37,549 --> 00:52:36,119
of they entered heinx orbit at the

1193
00:52:39,230 --> 00:52:37,559
University of Ohio and then at

1194
00:52:40,910 --> 00:52:39,240
Northwestern

1195
00:52:43,250 --> 00:52:40,920
um started working with him closely

1196
00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:43,260
because they just found him so

1197
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:45,900
fascinating and convincing and ended up

1198
00:52:50,450 --> 00:52:48,240
you know being part of his uh invisible

1199
00:52:53,630 --> 00:52:50,460
college so the first one of those people

1200
00:52:57,349 --> 00:52:53,640
is this woman Jenny zeidman who was a

1201
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:57,359
student of Heineken or at Ohio State and

1202
00:53:01,430 --> 00:52:59,040
then became his teaching assistant and

1203
00:53:03,650 --> 00:53:01,440
then became basically an assistant Blue

1204
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:03,660
Book investigator

1205
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:05,760
that's the first one I've posted then

1206
00:53:09,470 --> 00:53:08,160
just last week I posted part of an

1207
00:53:10,490 --> 00:53:09,480
interview with this gentleman William

1208
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:10,500
powers

1209
00:53:15,470 --> 00:53:12,960
who played a similar role with heineck

1210
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:15,480
at Northwestern University

1211
00:53:19,730 --> 00:53:18,000
um Bill Powers was not an astronomer he

1212
00:53:22,490 --> 00:53:19,740
was kind of a self-taught Electronics

1213
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:22,500
genius so heineck would need some new

1214
00:53:26,750 --> 00:53:24,720
hardware for the observatory at the

1215
00:53:28,190 --> 00:53:26,760
campus and Bill Powers would sort of

1216
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:28,200
figure out how to build it with all the

1217
00:53:32,510 --> 00:53:30,240
spare parts they had in the lab

1218
00:53:34,270 --> 00:53:32,520
so these two were these two were

1219
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:34,280
heinek's first like

1220
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,980
non-air force UFO comrades and they were

1221
00:53:41,210 --> 00:53:39,359
really really important pivotal people

1222
00:53:43,309 --> 00:53:41,220
in his in his history and in his

1223
00:53:44,569 --> 00:53:43,319
development as a researcher

1224
00:53:46,430 --> 00:53:44,579
um they kind of kept him on the straight

1225
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:46,440
narrow when he got a little goofy and

1226
00:53:50,930 --> 00:53:48,480
started veering off the path of serious

1227
00:53:52,430 --> 00:53:50,940
UFO research they would Reign him in and

1228
00:53:55,609 --> 00:53:52,440
say no no you got to keep looking at

1229
00:53:57,470 --> 00:53:55,619
this so I hope to continue this uh

1230
00:53:58,910 --> 00:53:57,480
series on sub stack I have a few more

1231
00:54:00,290 --> 00:53:58,920
interviews that I'm looking forward to

1232
00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:00,300
posting

1233
00:54:05,089 --> 00:54:02,280
um but yeah those those two people

1234
00:54:08,329 --> 00:54:05,099
absolutely Jenny zeidman and William T

1235
00:54:11,210 --> 00:54:08,339
Powers uh or heineck's first real

1236
00:54:13,010 --> 00:54:11,220
non-air force confidants in UFO world

1237
00:54:14,329 --> 00:54:13,020
and they became really important figures

1238
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:14,339
Tim

1239
00:54:22,670 --> 00:54:20,030
I'm so glad that you know not only that

1240
00:54:24,829 --> 00:54:22,680
uh Jacques is still with us but that him

1241
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:24,839
and I have become as close as we have

1242
00:54:27,790 --> 00:54:26,880
over the years because I've looked up to

1243
00:54:30,410 --> 00:54:27,800
him

1244
00:54:32,210 --> 00:54:30,420
uh you know for so long like all of us

1245
00:54:35,569 --> 00:54:32,220
have

1246
00:54:37,970 --> 00:54:35,579
um and I've had the opportunity uh to

1247
00:54:42,349 --> 00:54:37,980
literally spend hours and days uh with

1248
00:54:44,049 --> 00:54:42,359
Jacques alone and just just sit and just

1249
00:54:47,450 --> 00:54:44,059
talk about some of the strangest things

1250
00:54:49,970 --> 00:54:47,460
uh everything from food to levitating

1251
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:49,980
stuff with your eyeballs you know so and

1252
00:54:58,930 --> 00:54:54,650
and uh

1253
00:55:01,450 --> 00:54:58,940
um but it it's it's so important uh that

1254
00:55:05,390 --> 00:55:01,460
Jacques Valley is a part of this story

1255
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:05,400
and and his friendship with heinek which

1256
00:55:12,049 --> 00:55:08,940
he's very open about right he's uh um

1257
00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:12,059
but I've asked Jacques I asked Paul

1258
00:55:15,410 --> 00:55:14,160
heineck the same question that I'm about

1259
00:55:17,930 --> 00:55:15,420
to ask you

1260
00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:17,940
I said to I said to Jacques and I said

1261
00:55:25,250 --> 00:55:21,359
Nepal same question

1262
00:55:28,329 --> 00:55:25,260
did heineck know the secrets

1263
00:55:33,170 --> 00:55:28,339
that's it that's did he know

1264
00:55:36,589 --> 00:55:33,180
and and both of them have answered I

1265
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:36,599
don't know maybe

1266
00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:39,599
maybe uh what do you think about that do

1267
00:55:46,670 --> 00:55:43,380
you think that he was exposed and and do

1268
00:55:50,270 --> 00:55:46,680
you think he knew the the secrets

1269
00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:50,280
I think and this is just my opinion I

1270
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:52,740
think that he knew there were Secrets

1271
00:55:59,150 --> 00:55:55,800
but he didn't know what they were

1272
00:56:01,370 --> 00:55:59,160
or if he did he only knew maybe just one

1273
00:56:03,230 --> 00:56:01,380
small portion of the secrets not enough

1274
00:56:07,130 --> 00:56:03,240
for him to actually

1275
00:56:10,190 --> 00:56:07,140
you know build a a theory or a belief

1276
00:56:13,790 --> 00:56:10,200
system around but yeah I think I think

1277
00:56:15,650 --> 00:56:13,800
he was not privy to the secrets and I

1278
00:56:17,930 --> 00:56:15,660
think that bugged the hell out of him

1279
00:56:20,329 --> 00:56:17,940
for a whole lot of his career

1280
00:56:21,710 --> 00:56:20,339
the fact that he at times seemed so

1281
00:56:23,089 --> 00:56:21,720
close and one of the things that Paul

1282
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:23,099
said to me when I interviewed him for

1283
00:56:27,530 --> 00:56:25,680
the book was you know he he bit off

1284
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:27,540
something bigger than he could swallow

1285
00:56:33,230 --> 00:56:30,240
but he did swallow a little of it you

1286
00:56:35,089 --> 00:56:33,240
know he he got he got a little of it he

1287
00:56:37,970 --> 00:56:35,099
didn't get everything he didn't get like

1288
00:56:40,130 --> 00:56:37,980
he didn't get the full solution to the

1289
00:56:41,890 --> 00:56:40,140
UFO Enigma but he but he got a little of

1290
00:56:47,390 --> 00:56:41,900
it

1291
00:56:51,950 --> 00:56:47,400
the feeling that that I get when I read

1292
00:56:53,150 --> 00:56:51,960
the the book from 1977 and I I only say

1293
00:56:55,549 --> 00:56:53,160
that because you're right there's two

1294
00:56:57,410 --> 00:56:55,559
books and let's just talk I'm talking

1295
00:56:59,210 --> 00:56:57,420
about book number two you get the

1296
00:57:01,609 --> 00:56:59,220
feeling

1297
00:57:06,109 --> 00:57:01,619
um in there where he's talking matter of

1298
00:57:08,750 --> 00:57:06,119
factly here that uh UFOs are are real

1299
00:57:10,790 --> 00:57:08,760
they're they're they're they're not of

1300
00:57:13,490 --> 00:57:10,800
this Earth this is ET that we're talking

1301
00:57:17,089 --> 00:57:13,500
about and these are the reasons why boom

1302
00:57:20,270 --> 00:57:17,099
boom boom boom boom he's not the book is

1303
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:20,280
not hypotheticals or theories it's just

1304
00:57:25,130 --> 00:57:23,040
not about that and and if there's ever

1305
00:57:27,890 --> 00:57:25,140
been something that like I said almost

1306
00:57:30,530 --> 00:57:27,900
like a death back confession right

1307
00:57:33,530 --> 00:57:30,540
um I think it's this book that's the way

1308
00:57:36,530 --> 00:57:33,540
that I interpret it I use it as it's

1309
00:57:38,270 --> 00:57:36,540
like an Encyclopedia Britannica it's a

1310
00:57:40,970 --> 00:57:38,280
it's a Desk Reference

1311
00:57:43,790 --> 00:57:40,980
yeah absolutely you know it was the way

1312
00:57:47,930 --> 00:57:43,800
I look at it is that book the heinek UFO

1313
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:47,940
report is everything he wanted to say

1314
00:57:53,210 --> 00:57:49,920
for the 20 years he was with blue book

1315
00:57:56,089 --> 00:57:53,220
everything he wanted to say but couldn't

1316
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:56,099
was now he was just letting it all loose

1317
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:58,559
all at once in that book

1318
00:58:02,990 --> 00:58:00,480
he was like this is all the stuff I've

1319
00:58:04,970 --> 00:58:03,000
been keeping inside for 20 years this is

1320
00:58:06,530 --> 00:58:04,980
all the crap I've been dealing with I'm

1321
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:06,540
gonna put it all in this book and you

1322
00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:08,760
can judge for yourself

1323
00:58:14,990 --> 00:58:11,760
um before we head to the break uh I I

1324
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:15,000
want to stay chronologically in a linear

1325
00:58:20,750 --> 00:58:17,760
fashion okay so we we kind of stopped

1326
00:58:22,430 --> 00:58:20,760
around 1956 or so

1327
00:58:25,549 --> 00:58:22,440
um and we'll come back to that after the

1328
00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:25,559
break I'm going to jump ahead to the 60s

1329
00:58:29,329 --> 00:58:27,480
for a second because we were just

1330
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:29,339
talking about jock valet and that's

1331
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:33,119
Socorro okay and

1332
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:38,400
um I I think that Socorro

1333
00:58:45,950 --> 00:58:42,960
did it change Jay Allen heineck like we

1334
00:58:48,109 --> 00:58:45,960
think that it did was at a turning point

1335
00:58:50,270 --> 00:58:48,119
in his life

1336
00:58:52,609 --> 00:58:50,280
absolutely yeah

1337
00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:52,619
yeah he that whole story fascinates me I

1338
00:58:57,530 --> 00:58:54,720
love the Socorro case I I personally

1339
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,540
find it very convincing heineck founded

1340
00:59:01,309 --> 00:58:59,520
very convincing the gentleman I was just

1341
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:01,319
telling you about William T Powers who

1342
00:59:05,270 --> 00:59:02,880
worked with heineck at Northwestern

1343
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:05,280
University at the observatory

1344
00:59:10,490 --> 00:59:08,640
heinek sent Bill Powers to Socorro to

1345
00:59:12,589 --> 00:59:10,500
investigate the landing site and to talk

1346
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:12,599
to Lonnie Zamora that's one of the

1347
00:59:16,910 --> 00:59:14,880
things that's included in this sub stack

1348
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,920
I'm doing UFO Legends he talks about

1349
00:59:21,289 --> 00:59:18,480
that

1350
00:59:25,130 --> 00:59:21,299
um and

1351
00:59:28,190 --> 00:59:25,140
yeah Socorro the Air Force mishandled it

1352
00:59:30,710 --> 00:59:28,200
so badly Not So Not only was heinek he

1353
00:59:31,809 --> 00:59:30,720
found the he found the evidence and the

1354
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:31,819
witness

1355
00:59:37,370 --> 00:59:34,799
completely credible

1356
00:59:39,650 --> 00:59:37,380
but but he also found the Air Force's

1357
00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:39,660
attempts to explain it just completely

1358
00:59:43,970 --> 00:59:41,760
laughable so it's kind of this one-two

1359
00:59:46,609 --> 00:59:43,980
punch he's like the Air Force is like

1360
00:59:49,130 --> 00:59:46,619
flailing around trying to come up with

1361
00:59:51,049 --> 00:59:49,140
some stupid explanation for what

1362
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:51,059
officers and Laura saw

1363
00:59:55,730 --> 00:59:53,760
and they're just failing miserably and

1364
00:59:59,289 --> 00:59:55,740
the officer Zamora is not playing ball

1365
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:03,289
right or the FBI he was sick of them

1366
01:00:07,789 --> 01:00:05,760
um so heineck shows up he gets there a

1367
01:00:09,410 --> 01:00:07,799
little late because get this so Project

1368
01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:09,420
Blue Book ordered

1369
01:00:14,809 --> 01:00:11,819
heinek to fly from Chicago to

1370
01:00:16,490 --> 01:00:14,819
Albuquerque and then at Albuquerque an

1371
01:00:19,309 --> 01:00:16,500
Army staff sergeant was going to meet

1372
01:00:22,190 --> 01:00:19,319
him with an army car and drive him down

1373
01:00:23,870 --> 01:00:22,200
to Socorro so heinek gets picked up by

1374
01:00:26,030 --> 01:00:23,880
by this guy

1375
01:00:28,670 --> 01:00:26,040
they get about halfway to Socorro car

1376
01:00:31,069 --> 01:00:28,680
gets a flat tire they pull over to

1377
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:31,079
change the tire car doesn't have a spare

1378
01:00:36,349 --> 01:00:33,839
tire in it they are SOL in the middle of

1379
01:00:38,569 --> 01:00:36,359
nowhere in the New Mexico desert

1380
01:00:41,569 --> 01:00:38,579
you know on this deserted Highway and

1381
01:00:44,750 --> 01:00:41,579
they've got a flat tire and no spare

1382
01:00:47,210 --> 01:00:44,760
which to me is so emblematic of how the

1383
01:00:50,510 --> 01:00:47,220
Air Force was functioning with UFO stuff

1384
01:00:54,170 --> 01:00:50,520
of course of course the car didn't have

1385
01:00:55,730 --> 01:00:54,180
a spare tire it's the Air Force

1386
01:00:58,010 --> 01:00:55,740
um yeah I went off on a little tangent

1387
01:00:59,750 --> 01:00:58,020
there didn't I but I just find that

1388
01:01:01,849 --> 01:00:59,760
story is so funny and so perfectly

1389
01:01:03,010 --> 01:01:01,859
illustrative of how this whole dynamic

1390
01:01:06,109 --> 01:01:03,020
worked

1391
01:01:10,490 --> 01:01:06,119
Jacques uh and I spent a lot of time

1392
01:01:12,349 --> 01:01:10,500
talking about this case and uh and and I

1393
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:12,359
could have this wrong

1394
01:01:19,549 --> 01:01:17,220
believe this Jacques said

1395
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:19,559
he was with heineck when the phone call

1396
01:01:25,789 --> 01:01:23,119
came in about Socorro they were together

1397
01:01:30,049 --> 01:01:25,799
and and heinek got on the plane the next

1398
01:01:31,910 --> 01:01:30,059
day and Jacques almost went with him and

1399
01:01:34,609 --> 01:01:31,920
and didn't I believe if I have the story

1400
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:34,619
right okay he's got a French accent and

1401
01:01:38,990 --> 01:01:37,260
and uh and I don't listen that well plus

1402
01:01:40,670 --> 01:01:39,000
we were you know you know doing that

1403
01:01:43,450 --> 01:01:40,680
kind of stuff but

1404
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:43,460
um uh Jacques said

1405
01:01:50,990 --> 01:01:47,280
Socorro changed him man he said that was

1406
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:51,000
that was the one thing and and still is

1407
01:01:56,990 --> 01:01:53,760
just a huge mystery because

1408
01:01:59,809 --> 01:01:57,000
uh heineck did everything that he could

1409
01:02:03,589 --> 01:01:59,819
to debunk that case

1410
01:02:06,250 --> 01:02:03,599
to pull it away from E.T NASA lunar

1411
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:06,260
lander testing right

1412
01:02:13,789 --> 01:02:10,319
what what was uh the MIT of New Mexico

1413
01:02:16,250 --> 01:02:13,799
right New Mexico state or whatever kids

1414
01:02:19,549 --> 01:02:16,260
playing pranks whatever what they they

1415
01:02:23,690 --> 01:02:19,559
did ever all the he he threw everything

1416
01:02:25,490 --> 01:02:23,700
at that case trying to do uh trying you

1417
01:02:27,770 --> 01:02:25,500
know what I mean to get it off the VT

1418
01:02:30,589 --> 01:02:27,780
and he and he just couldn't do it yeah

1419
01:02:32,690 --> 01:02:30,599
well again back to back to his assistant

1420
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:32,700
Bill Powers when he sent Bill Powers

1421
01:02:38,510 --> 01:02:35,760
down to to investigate sicaro Powers

1422
01:02:40,370 --> 01:02:38,520
went to The Landing site he saw the

1423
01:02:43,849 --> 01:02:40,380
three Impressions made by the landing

1424
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:43,859
gear he saw the charred Bush where the

1425
01:02:49,130 --> 01:02:46,559
exhaust from this craft had burned it

1426
01:02:51,170 --> 01:02:49,140
and the way he explained it to me was he

1427
01:02:53,390 --> 01:02:51,180
said you know I I took I took

1428
01:02:56,150 --> 01:02:53,400
measurements I looked at this thing from

1429
01:02:58,490 --> 01:02:56,160
every every anger Ever every possible

1430
01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:58,500
angle and he said I wasn't really

1431
01:03:04,370 --> 01:03:00,480
convinced but then I noticed wait a

1432
01:03:07,250 --> 01:03:04,380
minute he said these Landing Pad marks

1433
01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:07,260
and this spot where the Bush was burned

1434
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:11,160
he said that burn spot is exactly where

1435
01:03:14,750 --> 01:03:13,680
it would need to be to be the center of

1436
01:03:17,930 --> 01:03:14,760
gravity

1437
01:03:20,030 --> 01:03:17,940
between those three Landing Landing uh

1438
01:03:21,530 --> 01:03:20,040
Impressions I'm not saying it as well as

1439
01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:21,540
he did

1440
01:03:25,970 --> 01:03:24,720
um if yeah I'm I'm getting the details a

1441
01:03:28,250 --> 01:03:25,980
little bit wrong but that was the thing

1442
01:03:30,410 --> 01:03:28,260
that convinced William Powers he looked

1443
01:03:32,210 --> 01:03:30,420
at the evidence on the ground and said

1444
01:03:34,130 --> 01:03:32,220
and said you know what that's exactly

1445
01:03:36,349 --> 01:03:34,140
how it should look and that's how it

1446
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:36,359
does look and now I believe that there

1447
01:03:40,190 --> 01:03:37,920
actually was something landed that

1448
01:03:42,829 --> 01:03:40,200
landed here I thought that was a very

1449
01:03:45,109 --> 01:03:42,839
very cool story and it almost gives me

1450
01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:45,119
shivers just telling that story again

1451
01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:47,760
uh let's take our break right here Mark

1452
01:03:51,890 --> 01:03:50,160
just stay right there this is Fade to

1453
01:03:54,349 --> 01:03:51,900
Black I'm your host Jimmy church we'll

1454
01:03:56,210 --> 01:03:54,359
be right back

1455
01:03:58,549 --> 01:03:56,220
this is Jimmy Church of Fade to Black

1456
01:04:00,770 --> 01:03:58,559
please visit all of our sponsors we're

1457
01:04:02,510 --> 01:04:00,780
taking a quick break here all of the

1458
01:04:04,809 --> 01:04:02,520
links are below

1459
01:04:09,289 --> 01:04:04,819
and we'll be right back

1460
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:09,299
join us November 10th 11th and 12th 2023

1461
01:04:14,450 --> 01:04:11,760
as disclosure Fest foundation and Fade

1462
01:04:16,970 --> 01:04:14,460
to Black radio presents Stairway To the

1463
01:04:19,370 --> 01:04:16,980
Stars a human Origins Science and

1464
01:04:22,430 --> 01:04:19,380
Technology Expo live at the Luxor Hotel

1465
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:22,440
and Casino and the Las Vegas Strip with

1466
01:04:26,690 --> 01:04:24,720
live talks lectures and workshops by

1467
01:04:28,849 --> 01:04:26,700
World Acclaim researchers and authors

1468
01:04:31,370 --> 01:04:28,859
this is Jimmy Church by the way and I'll

1469
01:04:33,650 --> 01:04:31,380
be your host all weekend long featuring

1470
01:04:35,809 --> 01:04:33,660
topics like human Origins ancient

1471
01:04:38,750 --> 01:04:35,819
Technologies indigenous teachings

1472
01:04:41,089 --> 01:04:38,760
workshops a mass meditation yoga and

1473
01:04:43,849 --> 01:04:41,099
sound healing music and so much more

1474
01:04:46,730 --> 01:04:43,859
don't miss our intimate sky watch and

1475
01:04:49,549 --> 01:04:46,740
meteor shower over the infamous Area 51

1476
01:04:51,289 --> 01:04:49,559
airspace in Rachel Nevada with special

1477
01:04:53,630 --> 01:04:51,299
surprise celebrity host guiding us

1478
01:04:57,470 --> 01:04:53,640
through the night also introducing our

1479
01:04:59,750 --> 01:04:57,480
disclosure Fest VR Starship area with

1480
01:05:02,450 --> 01:04:59,760
dozens of rides you've gotta check it

1481
01:05:04,010 --> 01:05:02,460
out this event will sell out for more

1482
01:05:08,329 --> 01:05:04,020
information and tickets Please visit

1483
01:05:12,890 --> 01:05:08,339
disclosure fest.org the secret is out

1484
01:05:15,530 --> 01:05:12,900
life waves x39 is the reason why I have

1485
01:05:17,569 --> 01:05:15,540
got my vision back this is Jimmy Church

1486
01:05:19,809 --> 01:05:17,579
of Fade to Black and you need to go

1487
01:05:22,510 --> 01:05:19,819
straight to

1488
01:05:26,750 --> 01:05:22,520
healingworksnow.com that's

1489
01:05:29,510 --> 01:05:26,760
healingworksnow.com works with an X all

1490
01:05:33,410 --> 01:05:29,520
of the information that you need is on

1491
01:05:36,650 --> 01:05:33,420
that portal find out why I look great I

1492
01:05:40,490 --> 01:05:36,660
feel great I'm thinking clearly I sleep

1493
01:05:43,549 --> 01:05:40,500
I dream life is good all of it you've

1494
01:05:45,770 --> 01:05:43,559
got to check out lifewaves x39 and all

1495
01:05:48,250 --> 01:05:45,780
of their other products it's all simple

1496
01:05:50,829 --> 01:05:48,260
to do go to

1497
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:50,839
healingworksnow.com that's

1498
01:05:57,770 --> 01:05:55,200
healingworksnow.com works with an X

1499
01:06:00,109 --> 01:05:57,780
hey everybody it's Billy Carson also

1500
01:06:01,609 --> 01:06:00,119
known as Forbidden Knowledge I want to

1501
01:06:05,270 --> 01:06:01,619
talk to you about a very special event

1502
01:06:07,370 --> 01:06:05,280
coming up July 30th 2023 The Forbidden

1503
01:06:08,990 --> 01:06:07,380
conscious Awards we're going to honor

1504
01:06:11,390 --> 01:06:09,000
people who have been contributing to the

1505
01:06:12,890 --> 01:06:11,400
conscious Community for decades people

1506
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,900
that you know and love that have helped

1507
01:06:16,609 --> 01:06:14,640
you get to higher levels of thought and

1508
01:06:18,950 --> 01:06:16,619
Consciousness and awareness it's going

1509
01:06:20,270 --> 01:06:18,960
to be alive in-person event but seats

1510
01:06:22,010 --> 01:06:20,280
are going to sell out very fast you want

1511
01:06:23,690 --> 01:06:22,020
to make sure you're there in person and

1512
01:06:25,450 --> 01:06:23,700
guess what you can help vote for the

1513
01:06:27,470 --> 01:06:25,460
winners voting is available on

1514
01:06:29,089 --> 01:06:27,480
forbiddenknowledge.com and the

1515
01:06:32,270 --> 01:06:29,099
categories are going to be social media

1516
01:06:34,089 --> 01:06:32,280
influencer podcast slash radio host TV

1517
01:06:35,870 --> 01:06:34,099
host actor director producer

1518
01:06:37,309 --> 01:06:35,880
entrepreneurs health and wellness

1519
01:06:39,770 --> 01:06:37,319
philanthropists authors field

1520
01:06:41,569 --> 01:06:39,780
researchers archaeologists space anomaly

1521
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:41,579
hunters and of course a Lifetime

1522
01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:44,400
Achievement Award I'll be your key note

1523
01:06:48,230 --> 01:06:46,319
speaker that night at The Forbidden

1524
01:06:50,569 --> 01:06:48,240
conscious Awards we have celebrity

1525
01:06:52,130 --> 01:06:50,579
guests performing we'll have a halftime

1526
01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:52,140
show where we're actually going to

1527
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:53,760
perform music for you and don't forget

1528
01:06:58,370 --> 01:06:56,400
about the pre-event mixer where if you

1529
01:07:00,289 --> 01:06:58,380
buy a box seat you'll be in the VIP

1530
01:07:02,930 --> 01:07:00,299
section and you also have private access

1531
01:07:06,049 --> 01:07:02,940
to a VIP mixer with celebrity guests

1532
01:07:07,849 --> 01:07:06,059
shake hands break bread Network and then

1533
01:07:09,650 --> 01:07:07,859
walk the red carpet with us and take

1534
01:07:10,910 --> 01:07:09,660
amazing photos it's going to be a night

1535
01:07:13,130 --> 01:07:10,920
to remember you don't want to forget

1536
01:07:14,809 --> 01:07:13,140
this make sure you hurry up and get your

1537
01:07:17,270 --> 01:07:14,819
tickets because you're selling out very

1538
01:07:19,150 --> 01:07:17,280
fast I want to see you there forbidden

1539
01:07:22,670 --> 01:07:19,160
conscious Awards 2023

1540
01:07:28,910 --> 01:07:26,089
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1541
01:07:30,730 --> 01:07:28,920
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1542
01:07:32,990 --> 01:07:30,740
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1543
01:07:34,849 --> 01:07:33,000
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1544
01:07:36,289 --> 01:07:34,859
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1545
01:07:38,329 --> 01:07:36,299
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1546
01:07:41,029 --> 01:07:38,339
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1547
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1548
01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:44,760
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1549
01:07:58,670 --> 01:07:55,970
Welcome Back Fade to Black I am your

1550
01:08:02,870 --> 01:07:58,680
host Jimmy church I was uh

1551
01:08:05,569 --> 01:08:02,880
I was delayed I was reading email our

1552
01:08:08,569 --> 01:08:05,579
guest tonight Mark O'Connell talking

1553
01:08:10,670 --> 01:08:08,579
about the strange UFO life of Jay Allen

1554
01:08:14,809 --> 01:08:10,680
Heineken and other subjects too as well

1555
01:08:17,090 --> 01:08:14,819
as Star Trek and uh and his writing uh

1556
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:17,100
for the series uh we'll get into that a

1557
01:08:23,689 --> 01:08:19,259
little bit more too as well

1558
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:23,699
um but uh uh back to we were just

1559
01:08:28,490 --> 01:08:25,679
talking about uh Lonnie Zamora and

1560
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:28,500
Socorro and how that affected uh Jay

1561
01:08:32,630 --> 01:08:30,239
Alan heineck

1562
01:08:33,769 --> 01:08:32,640
um I want to talk about Howard Menzel a

1563
01:08:34,510 --> 01:08:33,779
little bit

1564
01:08:40,249 --> 01:08:34,520
um

1565
01:08:42,050 --> 01:08:40,259
uh he uh what was the real okay we had

1566
01:08:45,530 --> 01:08:42,060
two different commissions two different

1567
01:08:48,289 --> 01:08:45,540
panels that were put together uh uh to

1568
01:08:51,050 --> 01:08:48,299
in my opinion embarrass heineck and and

1569
01:08:53,329 --> 01:08:51,060
blue book in the UFO subject

1570
01:08:56,150 --> 01:08:53,339
um and and he had to he had to go

1571
01:08:59,630 --> 01:08:56,160
through both of those and and then you

1572
01:09:02,689 --> 01:08:59,640
have Menzel uh who in the background and

1573
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:02,699
by some report I don't know

1574
01:09:08,090 --> 01:09:04,880
if Menzel

1575
01:09:10,729 --> 01:09:08,100
was misinformation and disinformation if

1576
01:09:15,050 --> 01:09:10,739
he was playing both sides of the coin I

1577
01:09:18,410 --> 01:09:15,060
don't know if Menzel was you know mj-12

1578
01:09:21,650 --> 01:09:18,420
had you know was working with and and

1579
01:09:23,689 --> 01:09:21,660
and and and knew the secrets but he was

1580
01:09:25,610 --> 01:09:23,699
turning around and hiding the secrets in

1581
01:09:29,209 --> 01:09:25,620
public I know these are dramatic things

1582
01:09:31,189 --> 01:09:29,219
to say but there was this relationship

1583
01:09:33,169 --> 01:09:31,199
because they're both astronomers right

1584
01:09:37,370 --> 01:09:33,179
they're both dealing with this subject

1585
01:09:38,930 --> 01:09:37,380
uh what was their relationship like uh

1586
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:38,940
with each other

1587
01:09:42,890 --> 01:09:40,560
I think you're making a really good

1588
01:09:46,430 --> 01:09:42,900
point here I think

1589
01:09:49,130 --> 01:09:46,440
in my research I got the feeling I never

1590
01:09:51,890 --> 01:09:49,140
found proof but I would sometimes get

1591
01:09:53,689 --> 01:09:51,900
the feeling that Menzel was kind of a

1592
01:09:56,090 --> 01:09:53,699
double agent like he was playing both

1593
01:09:57,650 --> 01:09:56,100
sides I don't know what his motivations

1594
01:10:00,050 --> 01:09:57,660
would have been for that

1595
01:10:02,090 --> 01:10:00,060
might have been as simple as money I

1596
01:10:03,890 --> 01:10:02,100
don't know and again I have no proof I

1597
01:10:04,910 --> 01:10:03,900
never uncovered any proof any solid

1598
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,920
evidence

1599
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:06,960
but there were times when reading

1600
01:10:12,110 --> 01:10:09,120
through especially uh correspondence

1601
01:10:14,570 --> 01:10:12,120
between Dr heineck and Dr Menzel

1602
01:10:18,350 --> 01:10:14,580
you would get this sense that even

1603
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:18,360
though uh when it came to UFOs they were

1604
01:10:23,510 --> 01:10:20,400
in violent disagreement they went butt

1605
01:10:24,410 --> 01:10:23,520
heads over UFOs all day long given the

1606
01:10:26,870 --> 01:10:24,420
chance

1607
01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:26,880
Menzel just did everything he could just

1608
01:10:34,970 --> 01:10:31,800
to just kill the whole UFO thing and

1609
01:10:37,970 --> 01:10:34,980
but at the same time I would also get

1610
01:10:41,050 --> 01:10:37,980
the sense in this correspondence that

1611
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:41,060
they could really easily shift gears

1612
01:10:48,290 --> 01:10:45,840
from fighting over UFOs to

1613
01:10:50,890 --> 01:10:48,300
working together

1614
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:50,900
sharing data on certain astronomical

1615
01:10:56,030 --> 01:10:53,400
issues or problems that they were that

1616
01:10:59,169 --> 01:10:56,040
they were both involved in studying I

1617
01:11:01,729 --> 01:10:59,179
really got I got this very very weird

1618
01:11:04,990 --> 01:11:01,739
image of these two guys who could be

1619
01:11:07,250 --> 01:11:05,000
just the the epitome of professionalism

1620
01:11:09,950 --> 01:11:07,260
professionalism with each other when

1621
01:11:13,130 --> 01:11:09,960
they were talking about astronomy but as

1622
01:11:15,050 --> 01:11:13,140
soon as the subject turned to UFOs they

1623
01:11:19,370 --> 01:11:15,060
like I said they would be button heads

1624
01:11:20,270 --> 01:11:19,380
and and you know the UF UFO Skeptics

1625
01:11:22,910 --> 01:11:20,280
um

1626
01:11:26,149 --> 01:11:22,920
like Menzel back back then in you know

1627
01:11:28,669 --> 01:11:26,159
40s 50s 60s Menzel Philip class some of

1628
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:28,679
these guys they were brutal they were

1629
01:11:32,870 --> 01:11:30,480
brutal in their attacks on the UFO

1630
01:11:34,910 --> 01:11:32,880
people you know and Menzel was not

1631
01:11:38,149 --> 01:11:34,920
Menzel was part of that Menzel could be

1632
01:11:40,189 --> 01:11:38,159
really really mean and really brutal uh

1633
01:11:42,530 --> 01:11:40,199
when it came to UFO stuff

1634
01:11:45,229 --> 01:11:42,540
so yeah very weird relationship between

1635
01:11:47,930 --> 01:11:45,239
the two men but I do agree with you that

1636
01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:47,940
Menzel I think there was more going on

1637
01:11:53,990 --> 01:11:51,360
with Menzel than anybody ever realized

1638
01:11:55,610 --> 01:11:54,000
and I don't know if there's I don't know

1639
01:11:57,649 --> 01:11:55,620
if we'll live we you know I don't know

1640
01:11:59,930 --> 01:11:57,659
if I would ever be able to prove that

1641
01:12:01,310 --> 01:11:59,940
also another another scientist I'll

1642
01:12:03,649 --> 01:12:01,320
quickly say who falls into that same

1643
01:12:09,530 --> 01:12:03,659
group Carl Sagan

1644
01:12:11,050 --> 01:12:09,540
yeah okay here here's here's the thing

1645
01:12:15,050 --> 01:12:11,060
mark

1646
01:12:21,709 --> 01:12:15,060
with everybody that we just mentioned

1647
01:12:21,719 --> 01:12:28,070
kind of weird

1648
01:12:32,750 --> 01:12:30,290
Neil deGrasse Tyson he's gonna flip-flop

1649
01:12:35,330 --> 01:12:32,760
oh yeah yeah I'm gonna get him to

1650
01:12:37,850 --> 01:12:35,340
flip-flop there's more on that

1651
01:12:40,910 --> 01:12:37,860
more on that coming everybody that would

1652
01:12:42,410 --> 01:12:40,920
be fun is that here's the thing with

1653
01:12:45,530 --> 01:12:42,420
Menzel

1654
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:45,540
I have I do so much research and so much

1655
01:12:53,510 --> 01:12:49,920
reading uh historically it consumes me

1656
01:12:55,729 --> 01:12:53,520
and I'm just fascinated with it and it's

1657
01:12:57,350 --> 01:12:55,739
happened a few times not you know that's

1658
01:13:01,130 --> 01:12:57,360
not hundreds of times but it's happened

1659
01:13:04,310 --> 01:13:01,140
a few times where I've seen his name pop

1660
01:13:06,649 --> 01:13:04,320
up in the weirdest of places

1661
01:13:08,689 --> 01:13:06,659
and it's like huh wait wait wait wait

1662
01:13:12,530 --> 01:13:08,699
wait wait wait wait

1663
01:13:16,910 --> 01:13:12,540
he's supposed to be a skeptic debunker

1664
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:16,920
is he you know and and I have sat back

1665
01:13:21,110 --> 01:13:18,719
and went huh

1666
01:13:24,770 --> 01:13:21,120
no really

1667
01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:24,780
and and so I'm left I'm left in the

1668
01:13:31,669 --> 01:13:28,560
middle I'm his associations with the CIA

1669
01:13:33,530 --> 01:13:31,679
with intelligence agencies

1670
01:13:36,290 --> 01:13:33,540
um same thing with Philip class too as

1671
01:13:39,110 --> 01:13:36,300
well maybe even say again I didn't say

1672
01:13:42,410 --> 01:13:39,120
it it is yeah yeah I know I think it's

1673
01:13:44,030 --> 01:13:42,420
possible but as far as Menzel goes

1674
01:13:46,970 --> 01:13:44,040
though going back to what we something

1675
01:13:48,169 --> 01:13:46,980
we talked about in the first hour when I

1676
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:48,179
mentioned that moment that that

1677
01:13:53,270 --> 01:13:50,159
scientific convention when eineck came

1678
01:13:55,250 --> 01:13:53,280
out from undercover and and

1679
01:13:57,229 --> 01:13:55,260
urged his his fellow scientists to take

1680
01:14:00,169 --> 01:13:57,239
the UFO seriously one of those previous

1681
01:14:01,250 --> 01:14:00,179
speakers was Menzel so and I and I

1682
01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:01,260
believe that was the first time in

1683
01:14:05,270 --> 01:14:04,080
Heineken Menzel met and in fact oh my

1684
01:14:07,610 --> 01:14:05,280
gosh I need to go through my old

1685
01:14:11,590 --> 01:14:07,620
research notes because I did have

1686
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:11,600
I did find some evidence back from that

1687
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:15,600
convention in 1952 that there was a

1688
01:14:23,149 --> 01:14:18,719
secret meeting between heinek and Menzel

1689
01:14:24,649 --> 01:14:23,159
dang it ah I wish I knew I wish I knew

1690
01:14:26,030 --> 01:14:24,659
where that info was I'm gonna have to

1691
01:14:28,430 --> 01:14:26,040
spend some time digging for that and if

1692
01:14:30,110 --> 01:14:28,440
I find it I will let you know yeah but I

1693
01:14:31,490 --> 01:14:30,120
remember and it was again it was one of

1694
01:14:34,189 --> 01:14:31,500
those things that I couldn't fit it into

1695
01:14:37,370 --> 01:14:34,199
the book it had to go in part because I

1696
01:14:39,110 --> 01:14:37,380
didn't have like an endings of the story

1697
01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:39,120
um but yeah I need to go back over my

1698
01:14:43,250 --> 01:14:40,560
notes and see if I can find that yeah

1699
01:14:46,189 --> 01:14:43,260
that was a really intriguing story

1700
01:14:48,890 --> 01:14:46,199
there I I think that with uh with with

1701
01:14:53,689 --> 01:14:48,900
everybody this includes Sagan

1702
01:14:56,270 --> 01:14:53,699
um uh the scientific Community today I

1703
01:14:57,470 --> 01:14:56,280
think has taken a different approach uh

1704
01:15:00,830 --> 01:14:57,480
to this

1705
01:15:04,910 --> 01:15:00,840
where Sagan uh even though he's modern

1706
01:15:07,910 --> 01:15:04,920
right okay he did he wrote contact

1707
01:15:09,410 --> 01:15:07,920
um but Sagan didn't have the data that

1708
01:15:12,649 --> 01:15:09,420
we have today

1709
01:15:15,649 --> 01:15:12,659
and so it was a different thing where

1710
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:15,659
science today definitely understands the

1711
01:15:22,490 --> 01:15:19,920
numbers now where it used to be a guess

1712
01:15:25,850 --> 01:15:22,500
a theory if there were other planets

1713
01:15:30,050 --> 01:15:25,860
outside of our solar system now if you

1714
01:15:31,729 --> 01:15:30,060
put every star in the universe has got

1715
01:15:35,030 --> 01:15:31,739
at least one plan in the universe not

1716
01:15:37,669 --> 01:15:35,040
our galaxy right that now it's a numbers

1717
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:37,679
game it did it is a completely different

1718
01:15:42,590 --> 01:15:39,420
world

1719
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:42,600
um and so it's not really flip-flopping

1720
01:15:47,270 --> 01:15:43,760
today

1721
01:15:49,450 --> 01:15:47,280
it's just the the data is is there to

1722
01:15:52,130 --> 01:15:49,460
support things that they didn't have

1723
01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:52,140
Menzel didn't have the heinek didn't

1724
01:15:58,189 --> 01:15:55,199
have this uh as part of his argument

1725
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:58,199
um and infermi and Enrico Fermi and and

1726
01:16:03,610 --> 01:16:01,440
the Fermi Paradox and the Drake equation

1727
01:16:05,830 --> 01:16:03,620
all of these things were based on

1728
01:16:08,930 --> 01:16:05,840
theories and ideas

1729
01:16:10,610 --> 01:16:08,940
not data and not the numbers that we

1730
01:16:12,649 --> 01:16:10,620
have today so it's it's a different

1731
01:16:15,169 --> 01:16:12,659
thing but Menzel

1732
01:16:16,550 --> 01:16:15,179
I don't know man I don't know I don't

1733
01:16:19,010 --> 01:16:16,560
know I think he

1734
01:16:21,890 --> 01:16:19,020
I think he was playing both sides I I

1735
01:16:23,810 --> 01:16:21,900
really do I think I think it's a very

1736
01:16:25,850 --> 01:16:23,820
real possibility yeah I'm glad you

1737
01:16:27,410 --> 01:16:25,860
brought that up because this is sort of

1738
01:16:30,470 --> 01:16:27,420
rekindling some memories from when I was

1739
01:16:31,390 --> 01:16:30,480
doing the research many years ago now

1740
01:16:35,750 --> 01:16:31,400
um

1741
01:16:40,430 --> 01:16:35,760
in all of your research with

1742
01:16:43,130 --> 01:16:40,440
um uh Jay Allen heineck and and what you

1743
01:16:45,470 --> 01:16:43,140
either the access

1744
01:16:49,250 --> 01:16:45,480
crash retrievals

1745
01:16:51,950 --> 01:16:49,260
it is something that is not a part of

1746
01:16:55,610 --> 01:16:51,960
Project Blue Book

1747
01:16:57,649 --> 01:16:55,620
um there is historically some military

1748
01:16:59,689 --> 01:16:57,659
reference

1749
01:17:02,090 --> 01:16:59,699
uh to this over the years but nothing

1750
01:17:04,430 --> 01:17:02,100
that made it into blue book and it's

1751
01:17:07,570 --> 01:17:04,440
something that heinek never really

1752
01:17:10,910 --> 01:17:07,580
talked about am I wrong in saying that

1753
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:10,920
historically where are we with a crash

1754
01:17:16,390 --> 01:17:14,159
retrievals because today it's like we're

1755
01:17:21,010 --> 01:17:16,400
about to have hearings in

1756
01:17:24,229 --> 01:17:21,020
Washington DC about crash retrievals

1757
01:17:25,490 --> 01:17:24,239
you're right heineck did not have he did

1758
01:17:27,229 --> 01:17:25,500
not want to have anything to do with

1759
01:17:29,390 --> 01:17:27,239
crash repairing stories

1760
01:17:32,209 --> 01:17:29,400
he wasn't he wasn't buying it

1761
01:17:34,669 --> 01:17:32,219
and he he didn't have any at least in my

1762
01:17:38,510 --> 01:17:34,679
in my research search

1763
01:17:41,270 --> 01:17:38,520
he didn't have any like concrete reason

1764
01:17:43,970 --> 01:17:41,280
for why he wasn't interested in Social

1765
01:17:47,450 --> 01:17:43,980
crash stories he just wasn't interested

1766
01:17:49,250 --> 01:17:47,460
he thought they were he his quote was

1767
01:17:51,890 --> 01:17:49,260
basically something like well I could

1768
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:51,900
talk forever about UFO crashes but that

1769
01:17:56,090 --> 01:17:54,239
wouldn't be real science

1770
01:17:59,870 --> 01:17:56,100
and he said and I'm not really going to

1771
01:18:01,250 --> 01:17:59,880
endorse the idea of of a UFO crash he he

1772
01:18:04,310 --> 01:18:01,260
didn't want to say or do anything

1773
01:18:06,890 --> 01:18:04,320
publicly that would be

1774
01:18:09,830 --> 01:18:06,900
that would be seen to be in support of

1775
01:18:13,010 --> 01:18:09,840
the saucer crash narrative

1776
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:13,020
well and and if we look back

1777
01:18:18,649 --> 01:18:16,560
historically right where we have these

1778
01:18:21,169 --> 01:18:18,659
different into Cape Girardeau for

1779
01:18:25,130 --> 01:18:21,179
instance Roswell

1780
01:18:27,530 --> 01:18:25,140
um uh and uh he was certainly around

1781
01:18:29,630 --> 01:18:27,540
when the Roswell story broke we know

1782
01:18:33,110 --> 01:18:29,640
about Kenneth Arnold

1783
01:18:36,410 --> 01:18:33,120
um of course and if you look at the 1956

1784
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:36,420
documentary uh UFO which is still one of

1785
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:38,520
the great it's a movie but document it's

1786
01:18:42,590 --> 01:18:41,040
the last documentary it's weird you're

1787
01:18:45,890 --> 01:18:42,600
part of Hollywood

1788
01:18:49,250 --> 01:18:45,900
that that movie's classified both ways

1789
01:18:51,890 --> 01:18:49,260
it's you know it's got

1790
01:18:53,270 --> 01:18:51,900
it's called a historical documentary you

1791
01:18:56,090 --> 01:18:53,280
know it's it's it's it's it's it's it's

1792
01:18:58,450 --> 01:18:56,100
it's in its own class but anyway there's

1793
01:19:01,250 --> 01:18:58,460
no mention of Roswell in that movie from

1794
01:19:04,910 --> 01:19:01,260
1956. they talk about Kenneth Arnold

1795
01:19:08,030 --> 01:19:04,920
right he's in the movie but uh uh no

1796
01:19:10,910 --> 01:19:08,040
mention of Roswell and as far as I know

1797
01:19:12,169 --> 01:19:10,920
Jay Alan heineck never mentioned Roswell

1798
01:19:14,570 --> 01:19:12,179
ever

1799
01:19:17,209 --> 01:19:14,580
that was another topic that he shied

1800
01:19:20,330 --> 01:19:17,219
away from you're absolutely right he he

1801
01:19:22,189 --> 01:19:20,340
never got pulled into Roswell he he and

1802
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:22,199
and this is something that I didn't look

1803
01:19:26,450 --> 01:19:24,480
for I was on the lookout for

1804
01:19:29,930 --> 01:19:26,460
when going through his files and his

1805
01:19:32,149 --> 01:19:29,940
papers was to specifically see if he

1806
01:19:35,090 --> 01:19:32,159
ever expressed any opinion about Roswell

1807
01:19:37,490 --> 01:19:35,100
and I never found a thing I never even

1808
01:19:39,770 --> 01:19:37,500
found uh you know with the saucer crash

1809
01:19:42,169 --> 01:19:39,780
thing I found a quote of his where he

1810
01:19:44,090 --> 01:19:42,179
said no I don't I don't buy into the

1811
01:19:47,149 --> 01:19:44,100
saucer crash thing I couldn't even find

1812
01:19:49,189 --> 01:19:47,159
that much where he was connected with

1813
01:19:51,290 --> 01:19:49,199
Roswell I couldn't find a quote where he

1814
01:19:53,689 --> 01:19:51,300
said no I'm not interested in Roswell I

1815
01:19:57,350 --> 01:19:53,699
just found a complete absence of any

1816
01:20:00,590 --> 01:19:57,360
mention of Roswell from heineck the

1817
01:20:02,390 --> 01:20:00,600
interesting thing is so after heineck

1818
01:20:05,030 --> 01:20:02,400
died in 86

1819
01:20:07,970 --> 01:20:05,040
he still had his Center for UFO research

1820
01:20:10,010 --> 01:20:07,980
in Evanston Illinois was still any well

1821
01:20:12,350 --> 01:20:10,020
it's still in existence now in a much

1822
01:20:16,430 --> 01:20:12,360
diminished State

1823
01:20:19,250 --> 01:20:16,440
um but very soon after Dr heineck passed

1824
01:20:22,610 --> 01:20:19,260
away in 1986 his comrades at the center

1825
01:20:24,350 --> 01:20:22,620
for UFO studies very suddenly shifted

1826
01:20:26,870 --> 01:20:24,360
gears and said you know what let's get

1827
01:20:28,130 --> 01:20:26,880
in on this Roswell thing

1828
01:20:29,689 --> 01:20:28,140
um so I always found that very

1829
01:20:31,430 --> 01:20:29,699
interesting so there there are some

1830
01:20:33,229 --> 01:20:31,440
interesting stories about kufos's

1831
01:20:36,649 --> 01:20:33,239
involvement with the Roswell case too

1832
01:20:38,750 --> 01:20:36,659
well you have Tom Schmidt and and you

1833
01:20:40,729 --> 01:20:38,760
know and others and Don was on the board

1834
01:20:43,550 --> 01:20:40,739
to kufo so he you know right was

1835
01:20:46,910 --> 01:20:43,560
responsible for a lot of that yeah

1836
01:20:49,870 --> 01:20:46,920
um the you you know

1837
01:20:53,709 --> 01:20:49,880
um uh speaking of Don and others

1838
01:20:59,930 --> 01:20:53,719
uh heinek managed

1839
01:21:03,649 --> 01:20:59,940
to uh keep a a stellar reputation right

1840
01:21:06,530 --> 01:21:03,659
there he and right anybody that's that

1841
01:21:09,350 --> 01:21:06,540
that knew him has got nothing but the

1842
01:21:11,870 --> 01:21:09,360
the best of Praise uh about Jay Alan

1843
01:21:13,610 --> 01:21:11,880
heineck that's a tough thing to do uh

1844
01:21:15,530 --> 01:21:13,620
not only these days but throughout

1845
01:21:18,050 --> 01:21:15,540
history

1846
01:21:20,450 --> 01:21:18,060
yeah yeah it's um

1847
01:21:22,010 --> 01:21:20,460
he had a lot of respect and that was one

1848
01:21:24,590 --> 01:21:22,020
of the things that fascinated me about

1849
01:21:26,870 --> 01:21:24,600
him as I was researching his biography

1850
01:21:29,330 --> 01:21:26,880
it was the fact that he had these two

1851
01:21:33,890 --> 01:21:29,340
careers well three careers

1852
01:21:36,290 --> 01:21:33,900
the UFO investigator the

1853
01:21:40,250 --> 01:21:36,300
um observational astronomer and the

1854
01:21:42,110 --> 01:21:40,260
educator these three careers that all

1855
01:21:43,689 --> 01:21:42,120
sort of intertwined in interesting

1856
01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:43,699
different ways

1857
01:21:50,990 --> 01:21:47,760
and heinek was very very highly regarded

1858
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:51,000
in the scientific world for his for his

1859
01:21:56,030 --> 01:21:53,520
astronomical work he was very highly

1860
01:21:57,470 --> 01:21:56,040
regarded he was responsible for the

1861
01:22:02,930 --> 01:21:57,480
construction of several important

1862
01:22:04,970 --> 01:22:02,940
observatories he was the brains behind a

1863
01:22:07,250 --> 01:22:04,980
whole lot of uh

1864
01:22:10,990 --> 01:22:07,260
a whole lot of projects like looking for

1865
01:22:13,669 --> 01:22:11,000
supernovae and looking for binary Stars

1866
01:22:15,830 --> 01:22:13,679
he he did some really amazing and

1867
01:22:18,110 --> 01:22:15,840
impressive astronomical work and he's

1868
01:22:20,330 --> 01:22:18,120
very highly regarded for that but again

1869
01:22:22,370 --> 01:22:20,340
like it was with Menzel you get this

1870
01:22:25,250 --> 01:22:22,380
flip side thing on the one on the one

1871
01:22:27,169 --> 01:22:25,260
hand he's highly respected for his

1872
01:22:29,870 --> 01:22:27,179
scientific work and his educational work

1873
01:22:33,229 --> 01:22:29,880
and on the other hand he's widely

1874
01:22:35,110 --> 01:22:33,239
ridiculed for his UFO work by the same

1875
01:22:38,630 --> 01:22:35,120
people

1876
01:22:41,450 --> 01:22:38,640
John Mack you know the the list is long

1877
01:22:43,430 --> 01:22:41,460
uh when it comes look at Avi lobe you

1878
01:22:44,630 --> 01:22:43,440
know he's he's dealing with the same

1879
01:22:48,350 --> 01:22:44,640
thing

1880
01:22:50,530 --> 01:22:48,360
um now wasn't uh did did heinek ever

1881
01:22:55,669 --> 01:22:50,540
question

1882
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:55,679
uh the reputation of Wright-Patt and the

1883
01:23:00,410 --> 01:22:57,840
coincident and there are none the

1884
01:23:03,770 --> 01:23:00,420
coincidence that blue book was based at

1885
01:23:05,870 --> 01:23:03,780
right Pat where Hangar 18 and where

1886
01:23:07,729 --> 01:23:05,880
they've been hiding the alien bodies and

1887
01:23:09,649 --> 01:23:07,739
the Crash retrievals was you know

1888
01:23:12,530 --> 01:23:09,659
everything was going on in his backyard

1889
01:23:14,390 --> 01:23:12,540
and it just happened to be the research

1890
01:23:17,270 --> 01:23:14,400
center for UFOs for the United States

1891
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:17,280
Air Force a program that he is a part of

1892
01:23:21,709 --> 01:23:19,440
didn't he ever put two and two together

1893
01:23:24,350 --> 01:23:21,719
right right Pat is mentioned in the

1894
01:23:28,790 --> 01:23:24,360
Roswell headlines right flown to right

1895
01:23:31,490 --> 01:23:28,800
Pat for you know it didn't he ever stop

1896
01:23:33,229 --> 01:23:31,500
and and and and and and start to add

1897
01:23:35,090 --> 01:23:33,239
things up

1898
01:23:36,169 --> 01:23:35,100
not someone not something not to my

1899
01:23:38,510 --> 01:23:36,179
knowledge

1900
01:23:39,890 --> 01:23:38,520
um again that's the kind of thing I was

1901
01:23:42,169 --> 01:23:39,900
looking for when I was digging through

1902
01:23:43,610 --> 01:23:42,179
his files and I never found anything

1903
01:23:45,229 --> 01:23:43,620
pertaining to that

1904
01:23:48,169 --> 01:23:45,239
it's kind of surprising when you start

1905
01:23:49,550 --> 01:23:48,179
doing this Research into someone's life

1906
01:23:51,530 --> 01:23:49,560
and you have

1907
01:23:53,750 --> 01:23:51,540
you don't you know you don't realize

1908
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:53,760
that you have a whole lot of opinions

1909
01:23:56,870 --> 01:23:55,440
already in your head about this person

1910
01:23:58,550 --> 01:23:56,880
and you start doing the research and you

1911
01:24:00,530 --> 01:23:58,560
find out a lot of your opinions are dead

1912
01:24:03,590 --> 01:24:00,540
wrong that happened a lot when I was

1913
01:24:05,330 --> 01:24:03,600
researching inyx live sure sure I can

1914
01:24:09,169 --> 01:24:05,340
understand that

1915
01:24:11,990 --> 01:24:09,179
um and the part about Roswell and the

1916
01:24:14,390 --> 01:24:12,000
lack of that information is especially

1917
01:24:19,250 --> 01:24:14,400
when it comes to heinek that's just a

1918
01:24:22,030 --> 01:24:19,260
fact of of History I I spend the better

1919
01:24:26,890 --> 01:24:22,040
part of a couple of years

1920
01:24:31,729 --> 01:24:26,900
researching Roswell between

1921
01:24:34,310 --> 01:24:31,739
1947 and 1980.

1922
01:24:40,189 --> 01:24:34,320
zero

1923
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:40,199
magazines not in any newspapers not in

1924
01:24:46,669 --> 01:24:43,679
any books not in any documentaries it is

1925
01:24:51,050 --> 01:24:46,679
not mentioned at all

1926
01:24:54,250 --> 01:24:51,060
and as a matter of fact a pretty

1927
01:24:58,070 --> 01:24:54,260
effective erasive history if you ask me

1928
01:25:01,430 --> 01:24:58,080
I had one person one time

1929
01:25:06,110 --> 01:25:01,440
say that there's a mention of Roswell in

1930
01:25:08,270 --> 01:25:06,120
this book from 1962. okay so I get the

1931
01:25:13,189 --> 01:25:08,280
book it's not in there

1932
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:13,199
read every page and so even that uh you

1933
01:25:17,990 --> 01:25:15,120
know what I mean or maybe maybe maybe

1934
01:25:19,490 --> 01:25:18,000
they just went back in and I got a new

1935
01:25:21,110 --> 01:25:19,500
version of the book and they removed

1936
01:25:24,970 --> 01:25:21,120
Roswell all right I got the second

1937
01:25:28,430 --> 01:25:24,980
edition but uh the point is a simple one

1938
01:25:31,990 --> 01:25:28,440
there is no mention of Roswell

1939
01:25:34,669 --> 01:25:32,000
um you know Long John Neville right

1940
01:25:37,310 --> 01:25:34,679
okay Long John Neville

1941
01:25:40,729 --> 01:25:37,320
30 million people a night listen to his

1942
01:25:43,610 --> 01:25:40,739
radio program the party line which was

1943
01:25:47,090 --> 01:25:43,620
nothing but UFOs in the Paranormal right

1944
01:25:50,149 --> 01:25:47,100
for 30 years out of New York City wor

1945
01:25:53,209 --> 01:25:50,159
e and what you know way before coast to

1946
01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:53,219
coast and everything else and and he had

1947
01:25:59,930 --> 01:25:55,260
everybody on that show

1948
01:26:03,229 --> 01:25:59,940
know Kenneth Arnold right uh Donald

1949
01:26:05,750 --> 01:26:03,239
Kehoe with frequent guest uh just over

1950
01:26:08,990 --> 01:26:05,760
and over if he had he had Arthur C

1951
01:26:12,729 --> 01:26:09,000
Clarke on a show in 1958 talking UFOs

1952
01:26:15,350 --> 01:26:12,739
right an alien contact I've listened to

1953
01:26:18,729 --> 01:26:15,360
uh just about every Long John Neville

1954
01:26:23,209 --> 01:26:18,739
show that I can from 19 in the early

1955
01:26:25,010 --> 01:26:23,219
1950s uh up through the 70s they never

1956
01:26:27,709 --> 01:26:25,020
mentioned Roswell they talk about every

1957
01:26:30,410 --> 01:26:27,719
case they talk about every they talk up

1958
01:26:31,490 --> 01:26:30,420
it's all on the not one mention of

1959
01:26:34,129 --> 01:26:31,500
Roswell

1960
01:26:36,830 --> 01:26:34,139
it's amazing it just it was completely

1961
01:26:39,290 --> 01:26:36,840
race for mystery

1962
01:26:43,570 --> 01:26:39,300
and it didn't resurface again until what

1963
01:26:48,890 --> 01:26:43,580
1970 right when standing there 1980 yeah

1964
01:26:51,649 --> 01:26:48,900
okay yeah and so uh that's that's why a

1965
01:26:54,110 --> 01:26:51,659
lot of this isn't surprising to me

1966
01:26:56,330 --> 01:26:54,120
how could

1967
01:26:58,970 --> 01:26:56,340
um Kenneth Arnold right who has his

1968
01:27:01,550 --> 01:26:58,980
sighting and then a month later Roswell

1969
01:27:04,490 --> 01:27:01,560
happens and it's you know headlines and

1970
01:27:06,590 --> 01:27:04,500
things where Kenneth Arnold isn't

1971
01:27:09,110 --> 01:27:06,600
talking about it why isn't Kenneth

1972
01:27:12,410 --> 01:27:09,120
Arnold you know talking about Roswell

1973
01:27:14,689 --> 01:27:12,420
along with his story it's just uh it's a

1974
01:27:17,330 --> 01:27:14,699
fascinating it's it's it's it's a fact

1975
01:27:20,270 --> 01:27:17,340
it's a historical fact Roswell

1976
01:27:22,550 --> 01:27:20,280
disappeared and the kid the whole thing

1977
01:27:24,649 --> 01:27:22,560
about Kenneth Arnold that see that

1978
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:24,659
intrigues me the sort of the tail end of

1979
01:27:29,450 --> 01:27:26,400
the Kenneth Arnold story because then he

1980
01:27:32,510 --> 01:27:29,460
got mixed up into Maury Island

1981
01:27:34,010 --> 01:27:32,520
um episode which is a real head

1982
01:27:36,770 --> 01:27:34,020
scratcher

1983
01:27:38,649 --> 01:27:36,780
yeah it's that's the thing there's so

1984
01:27:42,410 --> 01:27:38,659
many okay this is where I come into this

1985
01:27:43,970 --> 01:27:42,420
UFO thing I may not I mean I believe all

1986
01:27:47,450 --> 01:27:43,980
the stories

1987
01:27:50,209 --> 01:27:47,460
but I appreciate the entertainment value

1988
01:27:51,530 --> 01:27:50,219
in these stories like Kenneth Arnold

1989
01:27:53,629 --> 01:27:51,540
getting involved in the Maury Island

1990
01:27:55,669 --> 01:27:53,639
that's a crazy story I'm not saying I

1991
01:27:57,530 --> 01:27:55,679
believe all of it but it's a crazy

1992
01:27:59,870 --> 01:27:57,540
enough story to like get me really

1993
01:28:01,970 --> 01:27:59,880
interested and be like I want to know

1994
01:28:04,970 --> 01:28:01,980
more about this that's that's sort of

1995
01:28:08,270 --> 01:28:04,980
how I get pulled into UFO stuff over and

1996
01:28:10,010 --> 01:28:08,280
over and over again yeah I forget who uh

1997
01:28:14,270 --> 01:28:10,020
I think it was the publisher of Fate

1998
01:28:16,970 --> 01:28:14,280
magazine uh or incredible stories

1999
01:28:20,930 --> 01:28:16,980
what's that was that Ray Palmer Ray

2000
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:20,940
Palmer so Ray Palmer hears about Maury

2001
01:28:26,390 --> 01:28:24,960
Island right and he calls his buddy

2002
01:28:28,850 --> 01:28:26,400
Kenneth Arnold

2003
01:28:31,850 --> 01:28:28,860
says dudes do you know about this more

2004
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:31,860
Island thing well I kind of do yes can

2005
01:28:36,590 --> 01:28:34,560
you put me in touch with them and that's

2006
01:28:40,010 --> 01:28:36,600
how that's how Kenneth Arnold got in the

2007
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:40,020
middle of that mess you know it's just

2008
01:28:44,689 --> 01:28:42,239
that's a crazy story he goes he goes

2009
01:28:48,010 --> 01:28:44,699
from the original UFO witness to

2010
01:28:51,470 --> 01:28:48,020
suddenly a UFO investigator and then say

2011
01:28:53,570 --> 01:28:51,480
send the whole thing over the top you

2012
01:28:56,229 --> 01:28:53,580
got the two Air Force guys who die in a

2013
01:28:59,750 --> 01:28:56,239
plane crash with the evidence on board

2014
01:29:01,729 --> 01:28:59,760
yeah yeah exactly yeah and Kenneth

2015
01:29:04,430 --> 01:29:01,739
Arnold was wrapped up right in the

2016
01:29:06,530 --> 01:29:04,440
middle of that because Ray Palmer didn't

2017
01:29:08,870 --> 01:29:06,540
have a contact up there in Seattle he

2018
01:29:11,510 --> 01:29:08,880
had to call his buddy right Kenneth

2019
01:29:14,149 --> 01:29:11,520
Arnold and it's it's sometimes it's like

2020
01:29:15,649 --> 01:29:14,159
the crazy you're absolutely right about

2021
01:29:18,229 --> 01:29:15,659
that most people don't know they'll talk

2022
01:29:20,629 --> 01:29:18,239
about Maury Island and it is a

2023
01:29:21,709 --> 01:29:20,639
fascinating case it is it's it's it's a

2024
01:29:25,129 --> 01:29:21,719
crazy case

2025
01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:25,139
Kenneth Arnold the the Flying Saucer guy

2026
01:29:30,770 --> 01:29:28,320
right the guy was right in the middle of

2027
01:29:33,290 --> 01:29:30,780
it and we wouldn't have known really

2028
01:29:35,390 --> 01:29:33,300
about Maury Island if Ray Palmer didn't

2029
01:29:38,149 --> 01:29:35,400
get involved and start writing about it

2030
01:29:40,970 --> 01:29:38,159
and and that wouldn't have happened if

2031
01:29:43,430 --> 01:29:40,980
he hadn't called Kenneth Arnold and and

2032
01:29:46,430 --> 01:29:43,440
here's the other thing uh His Name

2033
01:29:47,629 --> 01:29:46,440
Escapes me right now there's an FBI

2034
01:29:51,169 --> 01:29:47,639
agent

2035
01:29:54,290 --> 01:29:51,179
uh that was involved with Mori island in

2036
01:29:56,209 --> 01:29:54,300
the very very beginning who was a

2037
01:29:59,570 --> 01:29:56,219
character who was also part of the JFK

2038
01:30:02,090 --> 01:29:59,580
assassination and and and his Trail

2039
01:30:07,310 --> 01:30:02,100
leads all the way across the United

2040
01:30:09,890 --> 01:30:07,320
States and Jay Edgar Hoover and and all

2041
01:30:11,870 --> 01:30:09,900
of these crazy cases um I'll think of

2042
01:30:14,750 --> 01:30:11,880
his name here in a second

2043
01:30:17,930 --> 01:30:14,760
um and I forget who plays him in the

2044
01:30:20,390 --> 01:30:17,940
movie JFK by Oliver Stone but he was

2045
01:30:24,770 --> 01:30:20,400
involved with maurya Island it's like

2046
01:30:27,649 --> 01:30:24,780
it's it's man man it's it's just it it's

2047
01:30:30,410 --> 01:30:27,659
just insane it's insane it's uh the the

2048
01:30:31,310 --> 01:30:30,420
same cast of uh characters then here's

2049
01:30:37,490 --> 01:30:31,320
another

2050
01:30:41,870 --> 01:30:37,500
um the Rhodes photographs from Phoenix

2051
01:30:44,629 --> 01:30:41,880
which were taken the same July 1947.

2052
01:30:47,090 --> 01:30:44,639
and I think that those are some of the

2053
01:30:49,129 --> 01:30:47,100
best UFO photographs in the history of

2054
01:30:51,770 --> 01:30:49,139
of the subject they're incredible

2055
01:30:53,570 --> 01:30:51,780
and so those make the front page of the

2056
01:30:55,790 --> 01:30:53,580
Phoenix news whatever the Phoenix Sun

2057
01:30:59,090 --> 01:30:55,800
Times or whatever the Phoenix

2058
01:31:00,669 --> 01:30:59,100
the local paper air force shows up at

2059
01:31:05,270 --> 01:31:00,679
his house

2060
01:31:07,430 --> 01:31:05,280
and it takes the photographs and gone

2061
01:31:10,430 --> 01:31:07,440
and if it's got It's like one of the

2062
01:31:13,490 --> 01:31:10,440
first Men In Black stories okay

2063
01:31:16,010 --> 01:31:13,500
um but that was also July of 1947. so

2064
01:31:18,290 --> 01:31:16,020
you had Mori Island you had the Rhodes

2065
01:31:21,350 --> 01:31:18,300
photographs in Phoenix and you had

2066
01:31:24,410 --> 01:31:21,360
Roswell all within 30 days

2067
01:31:25,610 --> 01:31:24,420
yeah yeah it's a pretty uh 1947 was

2068
01:31:28,129 --> 01:31:25,620
seminal

2069
01:31:29,689 --> 01:31:28,139
yeah the first flap I guess first real

2070
01:31:32,810 --> 01:31:29,699
slap

2071
01:31:37,070 --> 01:31:32,820
yeah absolutely incredible so now if we

2072
01:31:39,590 --> 01:31:37,080
push this uh Way Forward and because I

2073
01:31:41,689 --> 01:31:39,600
want to uh talk about crash retrievals

2074
01:31:44,629 --> 01:31:41,699
and and where we are uh with that today

2075
01:31:47,390 --> 01:31:44,639
but if we go to Close Encounters of the

2076
01:31:49,189 --> 01:31:47,400
Third Kind and that famous scene and I

2077
01:31:53,450 --> 01:31:49,199
love it you know heinek in the

2078
01:31:57,169 --> 01:31:53,460
background and we're Trading

2079
01:32:01,250 --> 01:31:57,179
uh portraying humans for 18 years

2080
01:32:03,169 --> 01:32:01,260
basically and uh so that's going down

2081
01:32:05,450 --> 01:32:03,179
the exchange we're exchanging we're not

2082
01:32:07,250 --> 01:32:05,460
trying we're exchanging and and there's

2083
01:32:09,890 --> 01:32:07,260
that scene with heinek

2084
01:32:13,550 --> 01:32:09,900
um and I have always felt that

2085
01:32:16,070 --> 01:32:13,560
um Spielberg is is in the know he's kind

2086
01:32:20,450 --> 01:32:16,080
of like Menzel right I think he's a

2087
01:32:24,649 --> 01:32:20,460
member of 12. but but it seems that

2088
01:32:28,010 --> 01:32:24,659
Spielberg was trying to document

2089
01:32:30,590 --> 01:32:28,020
and and tell us something and he chose

2090
01:32:34,430 --> 01:32:30,600
that scene to have Heineken

2091
01:32:37,250 --> 01:32:34,440
right and Jacques valet and and heinek

2092
01:32:41,030 --> 01:32:37,260
are are both a part of that Circle of

2093
01:32:43,430 --> 01:32:41,040
course for for Close Encounters

2094
01:32:45,950 --> 01:32:43,440
um it makes me feel that there was a

2095
01:32:47,629 --> 01:32:45,960
reason for that was there a reason to

2096
01:32:48,470 --> 01:32:47,639
have Jay Alan heineck in that scene in

2097
01:32:51,950 --> 01:32:48,480
the film

2098
01:32:54,169 --> 01:32:51,960
yeah yeah but it's it's not as

2099
01:32:57,709 --> 01:32:54,179
interesting as I think you think it's

2100
01:33:00,350 --> 01:32:57,719
gonna be I'm not so sure all right well

2101
01:33:02,629 --> 01:33:00,360
I'll tell you the story let me hear your

2102
01:33:05,270 --> 01:33:02,639
side yeah okay all right here's here's

2103
01:33:07,610 --> 01:33:05,280
the story so this came about very early

2104
01:33:10,550 --> 01:33:07,620
when I started researching heinek's work

2105
01:33:12,709 --> 01:33:10,560
for my uh biography of him

2106
01:33:15,550 --> 01:33:12,719
um I was looking through the center for

2107
01:33:20,030 --> 01:33:15,560
UFO studies uh files

2108
01:33:23,030 --> 01:33:20,040
and I came across the file folder with

2109
01:33:26,209 --> 01:33:23,040
the letter s on it and the first two

2110
01:33:30,649 --> 01:33:26,219
names I saw in the in the S category

2111
01:33:32,870 --> 01:33:30,659
were Sagan and Spielberg I was like ah I

2112
01:33:34,970 --> 01:33:32,880
gotta check these files out so I checked

2113
01:33:37,990 --> 01:33:34,980
the Spielberg one first

2114
01:33:41,209 --> 01:33:38,000
and the first letter is a copy of a

2115
01:33:44,689 --> 01:33:41,219
painfully polite letter that Dr heineck

2116
01:33:46,370 --> 01:33:44,699
sent to Steven Spielberg saying Dear Mr

2117
01:33:48,530 --> 01:33:46,380
Spielberg and I understand you're making

2118
01:33:50,930 --> 01:33:48,540
a new movie and I it has come to my

2119
01:33:53,750 --> 01:33:50,940
attention that you are using

2120
01:33:56,450 --> 01:33:53,760
my terminology as the title for your

2121
01:33:59,209 --> 01:33:56,460
movie I really wish I would have found

2122
01:34:01,910 --> 01:33:59,219
out about this from you directly instead

2123
01:34:03,890 --> 01:34:01,920
of you know reading it in a magazine you

2124
01:34:05,149 --> 01:34:03,900
know so heinek is very politely saying

2125
01:34:09,050 --> 01:34:05,159
hey man

2126
01:34:11,149 --> 01:34:09,060
you stole my material yeah you stole my

2127
01:34:13,910 --> 01:34:11,159
material you should have you should have

2128
01:34:15,590 --> 01:34:13,920
talked to me first right and I'm reading

2129
01:34:17,570 --> 01:34:15,600
this in this letter this actual letter

2130
01:34:20,570 --> 01:34:17,580
that heinek sent to Spielberg it's like

2131
01:34:23,870 --> 01:34:20,580
solid gold this document and then the

2132
01:34:27,530 --> 01:34:23,880
next the next letter is from Spielberg

2133
01:34:30,050 --> 01:34:27,540
back to heinek saying again being in

2134
01:34:33,110 --> 01:34:30,060
overtly polite

2135
01:34:35,270 --> 01:34:33,120
and saying oh my gosh I'm so sorry I had

2136
01:34:38,149 --> 01:34:35,280
no idea he goes one of my production

2137
01:34:40,010 --> 01:34:38,159
assistants suggested it as a title and

2138
01:34:41,689 --> 01:34:40,020
you know I'm I'm having everyone on the

2139
01:34:44,330 --> 01:34:41,699
production team read your book

2140
01:34:46,430 --> 01:34:44,340
the UFO experience

2141
01:34:48,530 --> 01:34:46,440
um and he said and don't worry we're not

2142
01:34:49,850 --> 01:34:48,540
going to use your words for the title of

2143
01:34:51,350 --> 01:34:49,860
the movie we're going to call it watch

2144
01:34:53,510 --> 01:34:51,360
the skies

2145
01:34:56,450 --> 01:34:53,520
and heinek was like well okay that's

2146
01:35:00,830 --> 01:34:56,460
cool so what they ended up doing was

2147
01:35:05,570 --> 01:35:03,590
um offered heineck uh a contract where

2148
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:05,580
they would buy

2149
01:35:10,310 --> 01:35:06,960
um

2150
01:35:12,830 --> 01:35:10,320
basically they they would buy the rights

2151
01:35:15,530 --> 01:35:12,840
to to dramatize anything in that book

2152
01:35:19,610 --> 01:35:15,540
the UFO experience for like a thousand

2153
01:35:21,649 --> 01:35:19,620
dollars and they would uh fly heinek out

2154
01:35:24,290 --> 01:35:21,659
to the Sound Stage and I believe it was

2155
01:35:27,350 --> 01:35:24,300
in Arkansas or Alabama where they shot

2156
01:35:30,890 --> 01:35:27,360
the UFO the dark dark side of the moon

2157
01:35:32,990 --> 01:35:30,900
UFO landing base for the movie so heinek

2158
01:35:35,930 --> 01:35:33,000
actually came out spent three days on

2159
01:35:37,669 --> 01:35:35,940
set worked as the technical consultant

2160
01:35:40,669 --> 01:35:37,679
on the film got paid like another

2161
01:35:43,610 --> 01:35:40,679
thousand dollars for that

2162
01:35:46,310 --> 01:35:43,620
um and then uh and then Spielberg

2163
01:35:48,649 --> 01:35:46,320
offered to include Heineken a little

2164
01:35:50,209 --> 01:35:48,659
Cameo scene which he did and and

2165
01:35:52,610 --> 01:35:50,219
heinek's description is really quite

2166
01:35:54,649 --> 01:35:52,620
funny because he says he says these kids

2167
01:35:57,290 --> 01:35:54,659
who were dressed up like the aliens they

2168
01:35:59,030 --> 01:35:57,300
really got into their part being super

2169
01:36:01,550 --> 01:35:59,040
curious about things

2170
01:36:03,950 --> 01:36:01,560
and he's like they were you know playing

2171
01:36:06,950 --> 01:36:03,960
with my pipe and sticking it up their

2172
01:36:08,450 --> 01:36:06,960
nose and and it's like I'm so glad they

2173
01:36:11,870 --> 01:36:08,460
cut those parts out of the movie because

2174
01:36:13,729 --> 01:36:11,880
it was really dumb but he's got that six

2175
01:36:15,169 --> 01:36:13,739
second scene where like you said he

2176
01:36:17,750 --> 01:36:15,179
comes walking up through all those

2177
01:36:19,729 --> 01:36:17,760
scientists and stroking his goatee and

2178
01:36:23,530 --> 01:36:19,739
fiddling with his pipe it's a great

2179
01:36:26,330 --> 01:36:23,540
moment it's a good cover story

2180
01:36:27,709 --> 01:36:26,340
I like that it's a good cover story

2181
01:36:30,590 --> 01:36:27,719
there's

2182
01:36:34,189 --> 01:36:30,600
um uh Close Encounters

2183
01:36:36,890 --> 01:36:34,199
um uh and again uh going back to the

2184
01:36:40,370 --> 01:36:36,900
book in 1977 where

2185
01:36:43,430 --> 01:36:40,380
um heinek uh gives his reasons and

2186
01:36:46,010 --> 01:36:43,440
examples for one two and three right and

2187
01:36:47,870 --> 01:36:46,020
and he does and that's that's really

2188
01:36:49,669 --> 01:36:47,880
cool and how he came up with the ideas

2189
01:36:51,590 --> 01:36:49,679
for that

2190
01:36:55,430 --> 01:36:51,600
um hence the name of course Close

2191
01:36:58,729 --> 01:36:55,440
Encounters of the Third Kind but um I I

2192
01:37:02,930 --> 01:36:58,739
feel that there it the more that you

2193
01:37:06,590 --> 01:37:02,940
watch the movie there is so much from

2194
01:37:09,649 --> 01:37:06,600
the very beginning from uh the flight

2195
01:37:12,110 --> 01:37:09,659
controllers at Indianapolis Center and

2196
01:37:14,810 --> 01:37:12,120
the way that they are dealing with this

2197
01:37:16,610 --> 01:37:14,820
plane and this unknown and do you want

2198
01:37:19,550 --> 01:37:16,620
to file a report and how that was

2199
01:37:23,149 --> 01:37:19,560
handled all the way to Flight 19 right

2200
01:37:27,229 --> 01:37:23,159
uh of course and uh the shock valet

2201
01:37:29,030 --> 01:37:27,239
character Lacombe uh and that that I

2202
01:37:32,450 --> 01:37:29,040
think all of this is based on reality

2203
01:37:34,729 --> 01:37:32,460
except for the exchange you know day are

2204
01:37:37,669 --> 01:37:34,739
we really dealing with a project serpo

2205
01:37:40,430 --> 01:37:37,679
type of situation is is this you know

2206
01:37:43,189 --> 01:37:40,440
the Eisenhower agreement and and things

2207
01:37:45,290 --> 01:37:43,199
I'm not so sure but I think that the

2208
01:37:48,050 --> 01:37:45,300
rest of the movie is is fairly on point

2209
01:37:51,350 --> 01:37:48,060
and I think that we can thank heinek and

2210
01:37:53,570 --> 01:37:51,360
uh Jacques valet for so much of that and

2211
01:37:54,950 --> 01:37:53,580
and the question Still Remains was

2212
01:38:00,890 --> 01:37:54,960
Spielberg

2213
01:38:03,470 --> 01:38:00,900
made so many movies uh about this exact

2214
01:38:07,129 --> 01:38:03,480
same subject and that's even putting E.T

2215
01:38:10,010 --> 01:38:07,139
on the side he's done others too as well

2216
01:38:12,169 --> 01:38:10,020
yeah uh I

2217
01:38:13,910 --> 01:38:12,179
it's a really intriguing possibility

2218
01:38:16,129 --> 01:38:13,920
I've got to say it's an entertaining

2219
01:38:18,649 --> 01:38:16,139
thought to have but I guess we will just

2220
01:38:20,270 --> 01:38:18,659
never know I don't see at this point I

2221
01:38:23,390 --> 01:38:20,280
don't at this point in his career in his

2222
01:38:25,250 --> 01:38:23,400
life I don't see Steven Spielberg having

2223
01:38:29,450 --> 01:38:25,260
any sort of death bet confessions but

2224
01:38:31,669 --> 01:38:29,460
who knows he might he might didn't was

2225
01:38:33,890 --> 01:38:31,679
it wasn't Reagan was it Reagan that

2226
01:38:36,950 --> 01:38:33,900
wrote in the letter we just watched

2227
01:38:39,110 --> 01:38:36,960
Close Encounters in at the White House

2228
01:38:42,070 --> 01:38:39,120
it's pretty accurate

2229
01:38:47,450 --> 01:38:42,080
right yeah yeah

2230
01:38:50,810 --> 01:38:47,460
said it was pretty accurate now what do

2231
01:38:54,770 --> 01:38:50,820
you make of uh what we're dealing with

2232
01:38:58,850 --> 01:38:54,780
this week in in the world of UFOs uh

2233
01:39:02,810 --> 01:38:58,860
which includes now uh Congress

2234
01:39:05,990 --> 01:39:02,820
um crash retrievals apparently we've

2235
01:39:08,629 --> 01:39:06,000
been doing this for a very long time and

2236
01:39:10,610 --> 01:39:08,639
this we've heard rumors and stories

2237
01:39:13,189 --> 01:39:10,620
about this in the UFO Community forever

2238
01:39:16,550 --> 01:39:13,199
right there's case after case after case

2239
01:39:18,530 --> 01:39:16,560
after case uh for me one of the best

2240
01:39:21,350 --> 01:39:18,540
cases that's never talked about is Cave

2241
01:39:25,550 --> 01:39:21,360
Creek right there in Phoenix Arizona in

2242
01:39:27,770 --> 01:39:25,560
1958 crash retrieval right there and uh

2243
01:39:32,390 --> 01:39:27,780
just north of Scottsdale

2244
01:39:34,850 --> 01:39:32,400
and uh so anyway uh the reports of this

2245
01:39:37,610 --> 01:39:34,860
have been uh going on for a very long

2246
01:39:39,709 --> 01:39:37,620
time now it's in the news what do you

2247
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:39,719
think is happening are we about to have

2248
01:39:44,510 --> 01:39:41,760
a revelation

2249
01:39:48,050 --> 01:39:44,520
I I wouldn't be too sure of that

2250
01:39:50,209 --> 01:39:48,060
um I'll be very honest I'm very I have

2251
01:39:51,770 --> 01:39:50,219
always been very dubious about saucer

2252
01:39:53,930 --> 01:39:51,780
crash stories

2253
01:39:56,810 --> 01:39:53,940
because

2254
01:40:01,010 --> 01:39:56,820
if you're talking about Crash retrieval

2255
01:40:04,669 --> 01:40:01,020
programs you are talking about a solid

2256
01:40:07,970 --> 01:40:04,679
physical objects the quote nuts and

2257
01:40:09,590 --> 01:40:07,980
bolts UFO unquote idea

2258
01:40:11,390 --> 01:40:09,600
um and we don't know that

2259
01:40:12,950 --> 01:40:11,400
we don't know for sure that these things

2260
01:40:15,430 --> 01:40:12,960
are nuts and bolts we don't know for

2261
01:40:18,350 --> 01:40:15,440
sure that these are physical

2262
01:40:21,050 --> 01:40:18,360
manufactured objects

2263
01:40:23,930 --> 01:40:21,060
and so we can't say for sure whether

2264
01:40:26,450 --> 01:40:23,940
they crash or not

2265
01:40:28,310 --> 01:40:26,460
um that's that's where I get hung up and

2266
01:40:30,530 --> 01:40:28,320
also I mean I think a Roswell I think

2267
01:40:32,149 --> 01:40:30,540
you know I've had this conversation I

2268
01:40:34,310 --> 01:40:32,159
mentioned before Jenny zeidman the woman

2269
01:40:35,629 --> 01:40:34,320
who worked with Heineken Blue Book when

2270
01:40:38,930 --> 01:40:35,639
she and I met when we were shooting

2271
01:40:40,250 --> 01:40:38,940
interviews for UFO witness for Travel

2272
01:40:41,209 --> 01:40:40,260
Channel

2273
01:40:43,070 --> 01:40:41,219
um

2274
01:40:44,390 --> 01:40:43,080
Jenny sort of took me aside at one point

2275
01:40:46,790 --> 01:40:44,400
she said Mark what do you think about

2276
01:40:49,610 --> 01:40:46,800
Roswell what do you think about Roswell

2277
01:40:51,169 --> 01:40:49,620
and I said well I said Jenny I think

2278
01:40:54,169 --> 01:40:51,179
it's very possible that something

2279
01:40:58,070 --> 01:40:54,179
extremely weird happened in Roswell or

2280
01:41:00,729 --> 01:40:58,080
near Roswell in in July 1947 but I said

2281
01:41:02,450 --> 01:41:00,739
I think the case has been so

2282
01:41:06,129 --> 01:41:02,460
contaminated

2283
01:41:08,390 --> 01:41:06,139
by by grifters and opportunists

2284
01:41:10,189 --> 01:41:08,400
and people trying to make a name for

2285
01:41:12,610 --> 01:41:10,199
themselves I think the case has been

2286
01:41:16,850 --> 01:41:12,620
contaminated so badly over the years

2287
01:41:18,770 --> 01:41:16,860
that we may never know the reality of

2288
01:41:20,090 --> 01:41:18,780
what happened or whether anything

2289
01:41:22,490 --> 01:41:20,100
happened at all

2290
01:41:24,110 --> 01:41:22,500
uh and she just thought about that for a

2291
01:41:25,790 --> 01:41:24,120
second she said

2292
01:41:27,649 --> 01:41:25,800
I feel that way too

2293
01:41:31,669 --> 01:41:27,659
so I felt like I was in pretty safe

2294
01:41:34,010 --> 01:41:31,679
ground if heinek's assistant was backing

2295
01:41:36,050 --> 01:41:34,020
me up on that so yeah I hate to

2296
01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:36,060
disappoint you I'm just not big on the I

2297
01:41:40,970 --> 01:41:38,639
mean if it turns out to be true and

2298
01:41:43,189 --> 01:41:40,980
somebody produces wreckage of a crashed

2299
01:41:45,530 --> 01:41:43,199
uh spaceship I'll be just as excited and

2300
01:41:47,270 --> 01:41:45,540
happy as anybody else would be I just

2301
01:41:49,850 --> 01:41:47,280
don't think it's going to happen here's

2302
01:41:51,410 --> 01:41:49,860
another thing about crash retrievals and

2303
01:41:52,370 --> 01:41:51,420
this this is the thing that really bugs

2304
01:41:54,109 --> 01:41:52,380
me

2305
01:41:55,790 --> 01:41:54,119
when when people start talking about

2306
01:41:57,470 --> 01:41:55,800
mystery metal right that's been

2307
01:41:58,970 --> 01:41:57,480
recovered from crash site the stuff you

2308
01:42:00,770 --> 01:41:58,980
can crush the metal and it returns to

2309
01:42:02,990 --> 01:42:00,780
its original shape

2310
01:42:06,290 --> 01:42:03,000
if that's what it was made of then it's

2311
01:42:08,090 --> 01:42:06,300
not a crash it's not wreckage

2312
01:42:10,550 --> 01:42:08,100
because if it's made of this Memory

2313
01:42:13,970 --> 01:42:10,560
Metal then it would all return to its

2314
01:42:16,189 --> 01:42:13,980
original form after it crashed so how do

2315
01:42:18,709 --> 01:42:16,199
you reconcile that so there's there's my

2316
01:42:20,870 --> 01:42:18,719
take people might be angry at my opinion

2317
01:42:21,590 --> 01:42:20,880
but that's that's what it is

2318
01:42:22,850 --> 01:42:21,600
um

2319
01:42:24,070 --> 01:42:22,860
well

2320
01:42:29,629 --> 01:42:24,080
um

2321
01:42:33,470 --> 01:42:29,639
the uh the opportunist uh around Roswell

2322
01:42:35,410 --> 01:42:33,480
and other things sure 100 percent

2323
01:42:40,430 --> 01:42:35,420
I don't base

2324
01:42:42,590 --> 01:42:40,440
my thoughts about Roswell on nearly any

2325
01:42:45,950 --> 01:42:42,600
of that and I've read every book

2326
01:42:48,169 --> 01:42:45,960
I've read so many books on Roswell that

2327
01:42:49,850 --> 01:42:48,179
I would get a new book and I would start

2328
01:42:52,930 --> 01:42:49,860
reading it and I would go I've already

2329
01:42:57,709 --> 01:42:54,609
because

2330
01:43:00,290 --> 01:42:57,719
and I hadn't read it before but it was a

2331
01:43:03,830 --> 01:43:00,300
regurgitation of of information and

2332
01:43:07,310 --> 01:43:03,840
names but uh but anyway I don't base it

2333
01:43:10,209 --> 01:43:07,320
on on that at all I base it on hout's

2334
01:43:13,550 --> 01:43:10,219
original press release

2335
01:43:17,870 --> 01:43:13,560
if you go and you read the original

2336
01:43:19,550 --> 01:43:17,880
press release and consider where it

2337
01:43:21,129 --> 01:43:19,560
originated from

2338
01:43:25,870 --> 01:43:21,139
which was

2339
01:43:29,990 --> 01:43:25,880
Roswell New Mexico the absolute heart of

2340
01:43:33,649 --> 01:43:30,000
the biggest brains on planet Earth

2341
01:43:35,390 --> 01:43:33,659
right Albuquerque Roswell the nuclear

2342
01:43:38,930 --> 01:43:35,400
Oppenheimer

2343
01:43:43,010 --> 01:43:38,940
for me anybody how anybody else that you

2344
01:43:47,990 --> 01:43:43,020
want to bring up was was right there

2345
01:43:50,930 --> 01:43:48,000
and for for the Army to uh it's the most

2346
01:43:53,570 --> 01:43:50,940
secret location right on planet Earth

2347
01:43:57,290 --> 01:43:53,580
it's the most secret location in the

2348
01:44:01,129 --> 01:43:57,300
Milky Way right right there to write

2349
01:44:04,729 --> 01:44:01,139
that press release like they did

2350
01:44:07,609 --> 01:44:04,739
um I I have to I have to I have to take

2351
01:44:10,070 --> 01:44:07,619
that as true and that's that's what I

2352
01:44:12,229 --> 01:44:10,080
base it on now the cover-up and how to

2353
01:44:14,390 --> 01:44:12,239
deal with the cover-up happened the next

2354
01:44:16,970 --> 01:44:14,400
day for sure

2355
01:44:19,310 --> 01:44:16,980
um and they decided to handle this in a

2356
01:44:21,410 --> 01:44:19,320
completely different fashion from that

2357
01:44:22,490 --> 01:44:21,420
day forward heineck talks about this

2358
01:44:26,390 --> 01:44:22,500
himself

2359
01:44:29,870 --> 01:44:26,400
right and and that that's that's what

2360
01:44:32,270 --> 01:44:29,880
they did from 1947 moving forward but

2361
01:44:34,370 --> 01:44:32,280
that original press release stands on

2362
01:44:35,629 --> 01:44:34,380
its own forget about the books and the

2363
01:44:39,229 --> 01:44:35,639
witnesses and the nurse and the

2364
01:44:41,390 --> 01:44:39,239
red-headed sergeant and and and and the

2365
01:44:44,750 --> 01:44:41,400
child caskets and the and the funeral

2366
01:44:47,209 --> 01:44:44,760
home and you know okay all right all

2367
01:44:48,890 --> 01:44:47,219
right cool folklore awesome maybe it's

2368
01:44:52,669 --> 01:44:48,900
true I don't know

2369
01:44:55,490 --> 01:44:52,679
that press release was approved by

2370
01:44:58,010 --> 01:44:55,500
Roswell Army Airfield home of the only

2371
01:44:59,770 --> 01:44:58,020
nuclear weapons Detachment on planet

2372
01:45:02,689 --> 01:44:59,780
Earth so

2373
01:45:07,010 --> 01:45:02,699
uh that's that's that's that's that's

2374
01:45:09,890 --> 01:45:07,020
where I'm at and and why would they fly

2375
01:45:13,310 --> 01:45:09,900
it's the basic question of why would

2376
01:45:17,030 --> 01:45:13,320
they fly little pieces of a weather

2377
01:45:19,930 --> 01:45:17,040
balloon to Houston and then to write Pat

2378
01:45:25,490 --> 01:45:22,250
somebody really wants to look at me

2379
01:45:29,330 --> 01:45:25,500
straight in the face and say that uh the

2380
01:45:32,570 --> 01:45:29,340
people of Roswell Army Airfield didn't

2381
01:45:35,330 --> 01:45:32,580
know what a weather balloon was

2382
01:45:37,010 --> 01:45:35,340
is that possible and there and then and

2383
01:45:40,010 --> 01:45:37,020
and there and they've got nuclear

2384
01:45:42,169 --> 01:45:40,020
weapons there is this is this Monty

2385
01:45:44,870 --> 01:45:42,179
Python we're talking about

2386
01:45:47,689 --> 01:45:44,880
you know and that's that's it that's

2387
01:45:51,410 --> 01:45:47,699
that's that's where I come from uh

2388
01:45:53,149 --> 01:45:51,420
everything else ah you know but uh no

2389
01:45:54,890 --> 01:45:53,159
that's that's it that's that's where I'm

2390
01:45:56,709 --> 01:45:54,900
at with it and I I don't think I'm ever

2391
01:45:59,390 --> 01:45:56,719
really going to change

2392
01:46:01,609 --> 01:45:59,400
and you know and Mark there's there's

2393
01:46:03,890 --> 01:46:01,619
another interesting point about Roswell

2394
01:46:04,910 --> 01:46:03,900
where I talk about it being erased from

2395
01:46:06,530 --> 01:46:04,920
history

2396
01:46:10,790 --> 01:46:06,540
when

2397
01:46:14,330 --> 01:46:10,800
think of 1996

2398
01:46:17,990 --> 01:46:14,340
uh Roswell case closed right and they do

2399
01:46:20,330 --> 01:46:18,000
the report and it's released in that

2400
01:46:22,910 --> 01:46:20,340
report they got their own dates wrong

2401
01:46:26,149 --> 01:46:22,920
and you know it was Project Mogul it was

2402
01:46:28,790 --> 01:46:26,159
this it was it was dummies crash test

2403
01:46:30,470 --> 01:46:28,800
and and which didn't happen for another

2404
01:46:33,950 --> 01:46:30,480
four years

2405
01:46:36,290 --> 01:46:33,960
after Roswell right and and and then

2406
01:46:39,470 --> 01:46:36,300
when the GAO the general Accounting

2407
01:46:42,410 --> 01:46:39,480
Office comes out with their report on

2408
01:46:45,169 --> 01:46:42,420
Roswell they are told by the Air Force

2409
01:46:48,530 --> 01:46:45,179
and the Army and the Department of

2410
01:46:50,810 --> 01:46:48,540
Defense and the Pentagon that everything

2411
01:46:52,890 --> 01:46:50,820
about Roswell

2412
01:46:55,189 --> 01:46:52,900
has been destroyed

2413
01:46:59,570 --> 01:46:55,199
[Laughter]

2414
01:47:01,550 --> 01:46:59,580
one what and that's the general that's

2415
01:47:02,689 --> 01:47:01,560
the GAO

2416
01:47:04,729 --> 01:47:02,699
right

2417
01:47:07,010 --> 01:47:04,739
but there's no phone records there's no

2418
01:47:09,229 --> 01:47:07,020
Bank receipts there's no cables there's

2419
01:47:11,030 --> 01:47:09,239
no telegrams there's no there's there's

2420
01:47:12,649 --> 01:47:11,040
nothing there's no memos there's no

2421
01:47:16,189 --> 01:47:12,659
copies there's no reports there's no

2422
01:47:17,689 --> 01:47:16,199
write-ups there's nothing

2423
01:47:20,209 --> 01:47:17,699
left

2424
01:47:22,370 --> 01:47:20,219
all records have been destroyed do you

2425
01:47:24,770 --> 01:47:22,380
really do you really buy that

2426
01:47:26,990 --> 01:47:24,780
I don't I don't I know we've got

2427
01:47:28,609 --> 01:47:27,000
historical records going back to the

2428
01:47:31,930 --> 01:47:28,619
1700s

2429
01:47:35,689 --> 01:47:31,940
right and then that survive but

2430
01:47:39,830 --> 01:47:35,699
mysteriously the only thing that matters

2431
01:47:42,290 --> 01:47:39,840
right now that the GAO is researching

2432
01:47:45,590 --> 01:47:42,300
um which is Roswell that all records

2433
01:47:48,709 --> 01:47:45,600
about Roswell have been destroyed that's

2434
01:47:51,229 --> 01:47:48,719
the Air Force's words by the way and the

2435
01:47:53,629 --> 01:47:51,239
Army's words that's so so that's that's

2436
01:47:56,209 --> 01:47:53,639
what I base my my opinion on

2437
01:47:58,850 --> 01:47:56,219
yeah it's making me think of the final

2438
01:48:00,470 --> 01:47:58,860
scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark that

2439
01:48:02,629 --> 01:48:00,480
classic image of the government

2440
01:48:04,750 --> 01:48:02,639
Warehouse where all the secrets are kept

2441
01:48:07,490 --> 01:48:04,760
yeah yeah

2442
01:48:08,629 --> 01:48:07,500
and you know and that scene is meant as

2443
01:48:10,609 --> 01:48:08,639
a joke

2444
01:48:13,070 --> 01:48:10,619
but I believe it

2445
01:48:16,430 --> 01:48:13,080
oh for sure now I think everybody

2446
01:48:21,790 --> 01:48:16,440
believes it what do you make of uh David

2447
01:48:27,250 --> 01:48:25,070
his his CV his resume is part of the

2448
01:48:29,810 --> 01:48:27,260
public record he's a decorated soldier

2449
01:48:32,930 --> 01:48:29,820
intelligence specialist

2450
01:48:34,370 --> 01:48:32,940
um uh at the nro right if I if I got it

2451
01:48:38,209 --> 01:48:34,380
right

2452
01:48:41,629 --> 01:48:38,219
um uh of course uh the UAP task force

2453
01:48:43,750 --> 01:48:41,639
and for somebody like him to step

2454
01:48:46,970 --> 01:48:43,760
forward and say hey

2455
01:48:48,830 --> 01:48:46,980
we have intact craft and one of the

2456
01:48:50,470 --> 01:48:48,840
things that he said he said a couple of

2457
01:48:54,770 --> 01:48:50,480
these crafts

2458
01:48:58,250 --> 01:48:54,780
uh were found alone

2459
01:49:01,250 --> 01:48:58,260
right so that there wasn't any occupants

2460
01:49:03,890 --> 01:49:01,260
and this is like very direct why would

2461
01:49:06,050 --> 01:49:03,900
somebody step forward like this and sign

2462
01:49:10,129 --> 01:49:06,060
off on whistleblower status and

2463
01:49:15,530 --> 01:49:10,139
absolutely like you said ruin his career

2464
01:49:17,270 --> 01:49:15,540
right and and any future employment

2465
01:49:18,770 --> 01:49:17,280
um what do you what do you make of

2466
01:49:20,209 --> 01:49:18,780
somebody like this coming forward saying

2467
01:49:22,129 --> 01:49:20,219
yeah we do have this and we do have

2468
01:49:24,770 --> 01:49:22,139
bodies on ice

2469
01:49:26,149 --> 01:49:24,780
uh I'm I'm gonna go back to what we

2470
01:49:29,750 --> 01:49:26,159
talked about right at the beginning of

2471
01:49:32,209 --> 01:49:29,760
this talk which went when I said that my

2472
01:49:35,209 --> 01:49:32,219
litmus test is

2473
01:49:37,669 --> 01:49:35,219
is this new UFO story going to help me

2474
01:49:39,109 --> 01:49:37,679
understand the phenomenon better and the

2475
01:49:41,750 --> 01:49:39,119
story that you're talking about the

2476
01:49:42,910 --> 01:49:41,760
answer is frankly no

2477
01:49:46,550 --> 01:49:42,920
um

2478
01:49:49,250 --> 01:49:46,560
it's an entertaining story well

2479
01:49:50,149 --> 01:49:49,260
because to the best of my knowledge this

2480
01:49:53,689 --> 01:49:50,159
guy

2481
01:49:56,330 --> 01:49:53,699
I have no opinion of him whatsoever

2482
01:49:58,910 --> 01:49:56,340
but to the best of my knowledge the

2483
01:50:02,330 --> 01:49:58,920
things that he has claimed the things

2484
01:50:05,330 --> 01:50:02,340
that he has talked about he has not seen

2485
01:50:08,330 --> 01:50:05,340
or touched or experienced any of them

2486
01:50:09,890 --> 01:50:08,340
firsthand to the best of my knowledge so

2487
01:50:12,109 --> 01:50:09,900
I feel so I feel like well why shouldn't

2488
01:50:14,390 --> 01:50:12,119
I believe this guy but that's that's not

2489
01:50:16,669 --> 01:50:14,400
that's not his purpose

2490
01:50:20,590 --> 01:50:16,679
and he's never claimed that

2491
01:50:24,109 --> 01:50:20,600
his purpose is the he's the Catalyst now

2492
01:50:26,030 --> 01:50:24,119
for hearings uh on Capitol Hill about

2493
01:50:31,250 --> 01:50:26,040
crash retrievals

2494
01:50:35,090 --> 01:50:31,260
he he gave the IG and he gave congress

2495
01:50:37,010 --> 01:50:35,100
classified documents with names and

2496
01:50:40,490 --> 01:50:37,020
dates and locations

2497
01:50:43,070 --> 01:50:40,500
he's done this and so his job is

2498
01:50:45,109 --> 01:50:43,080
complete you don't have to believe him

2499
01:50:48,410 --> 01:50:45,119
that's that's not the point the point is

2500
01:50:50,810 --> 01:50:48,420
he went to the IG passed along the

2501
01:50:53,510 --> 01:50:50,820
classified documents went to Congress

2502
01:50:56,030 --> 01:50:53,520
did the same thing and now we're having

2503
01:50:58,910 --> 01:50:56,040
hearings about it that's that's his job

2504
01:51:01,609 --> 01:50:58,920
it's not about did you see something he

2505
01:51:04,010 --> 01:51:01,619
never claimed that you know and so

2506
01:51:07,430 --> 01:51:04,020
that's and now we've got hearings as a

2507
01:51:09,950 --> 01:51:07,440
result and the information finally uh

2508
01:51:14,410 --> 01:51:09,960
has been passed on and I think that's

2509
01:51:19,189 --> 01:51:17,330
to me

2510
01:51:20,709 --> 01:51:19,199
it's just it just doesn't grab my

2511
01:51:23,750 --> 01:51:20,719
interest

2512
01:51:25,550 --> 01:51:23,760
and I I have no I have no opinion of the

2513
01:51:27,790 --> 01:51:25,560
guy whatsoever I'm not saying he's a

2514
01:51:30,770 --> 01:51:27,800
liar I'm not saying he's been misled

2515
01:51:33,410 --> 01:51:30,780
I don't know what motivations he might

2516
01:51:37,370 --> 01:51:33,420
have I'm just saying that it's just

2517
01:51:39,590 --> 01:51:37,380
yeah but I I think um you and I are

2518
01:51:44,149 --> 01:51:39,600
looking at this uh completely

2519
01:51:47,649 --> 01:51:44,159
differently I can care less if he has

2520
01:51:51,290 --> 01:51:47,659
seen something doesn't matter to me

2521
01:51:54,709 --> 01:51:51,300
that's not that's not why he is

2522
01:51:57,709 --> 01:51:54,719
important what is important is that

2523
01:52:01,010 --> 01:51:57,719
members of the Senate and members of the

2524
01:52:02,629 --> 01:52:01,020
House are saying I've seen this now we

2525
01:52:04,609 --> 01:52:02,639
need to have hearings on this I've

2526
01:52:07,310 --> 01:52:04,619
looked at the documents and we have got

2527
01:52:09,530 --> 01:52:07,320
a situation here that uh we need to

2528
01:52:14,149 --> 01:52:09,540
discuss and have hearings about that's

2529
01:52:17,930 --> 01:52:14,159
just that that's crazy town and for uh

2530
01:52:19,910 --> 01:52:17,940
the uh uh those elected officials to go

2531
01:52:22,370 --> 01:52:19,920
on the record and look into a camera and

2532
01:52:25,370 --> 01:52:22,380
say yes I've seen it and we need to have

2533
01:52:28,310 --> 01:52:25,380
hearings now that's that's that's insane

2534
01:52:31,609 --> 01:52:28,320
and that that's his job that's what a

2535
01:52:33,350 --> 01:52:31,619
whistleblower does it's not about uh

2536
01:52:37,729 --> 01:52:33,360
presenting

2537
01:52:40,669 --> 01:52:37,739
a a a video or I went to an uh a hangar

2538
01:52:43,070 --> 01:52:40,679
at Lockheed Skunk Works and I saw the

2539
01:52:45,169 --> 01:52:43,080
craft myself and we need to believe that

2540
01:52:47,810 --> 01:52:45,179
story that's that's not what we're

2541
01:52:50,930 --> 01:52:47,820
talking about we're talking about the

2542
01:52:54,050 --> 01:52:50,940
the Catalyst of what he has presented

2543
01:52:56,810 --> 01:52:54,060
and what has motivated Washington DC

2544
01:52:59,030 --> 01:52:56,820
right now I think it's crazy now that

2545
01:53:01,790 --> 01:52:59,040
don't you want hearing wouldn't you like

2546
01:53:05,810 --> 01:53:01,800
to see a Godfather moment remember the

2547
01:53:08,689 --> 01:53:05,820
hearings in in Godfather or uh uh you

2548
01:53:12,229 --> 01:53:08,699
know Howard Hughes right and so you've

2549
01:53:15,530 --> 01:53:12,239
got the the CEO of Lockheed Skunk Works

2550
01:53:18,169 --> 01:53:15,540
sitting there getting grilled uh by the

2551
01:53:19,910 --> 01:53:18,179
Senate and having his attorney whisper

2552
01:53:21,129 --> 01:53:19,920
in his ear covering up the microphone

2553
01:53:24,109 --> 01:53:21,139
right

2554
01:53:27,229 --> 01:53:24,119
about Crash retrievals that's where we

2555
01:53:28,990 --> 01:53:27,239
are and yeah yeah I I'm I'm very

2556
01:53:33,350 --> 01:53:29,000
interested in this

2557
01:53:35,930 --> 01:53:33,360
all I can say is I believe very strongly

2558
01:53:39,590 --> 01:53:35,940
if there is a fundamental reality to the

2559
01:53:42,109 --> 01:53:39,600
UFO phenomenon I've always said that

2560
01:53:44,570 --> 01:53:42,119
um but I don't know what that reality is

2561
01:53:46,370 --> 01:53:44,580
and I'm not really

2562
01:53:48,890 --> 01:53:46,380
and again

2563
01:53:50,750 --> 01:53:48,900
in some ways my opinions were formed by

2564
01:53:52,370 --> 01:53:50,760
my research of heinek's life and

2565
01:53:54,229 --> 01:53:52,380
heineck's work

2566
01:53:56,149 --> 01:53:54,239
um heinek was never willing to commit

2567
01:53:57,770 --> 01:53:56,159
himself to any one explanation for the

2568
01:53:59,990 --> 01:53:57,780
phenomenon because he felt that would be

2569
01:54:03,890 --> 01:54:00,000
intellectually dishonest because we just

2570
01:54:06,709 --> 01:54:03,900
don't know and I I I fall in line with

2571
01:54:08,510 --> 01:54:06,719
that I I believe it's real

2572
01:54:10,669 --> 01:54:08,520
but I can't tell you why and I can't

2573
01:54:11,450 --> 01:54:10,679
tell you how

2574
01:54:14,090 --> 01:54:11,460
um

2575
01:54:15,410 --> 01:54:14,100
but I'm and I'm and I can't and I don't

2576
01:54:20,270 --> 01:54:15,420
know enough

2577
01:54:21,590 --> 01:54:20,280
yes I believe it's this explanation

2578
01:54:23,870 --> 01:54:21,600
right here

2579
01:54:24,770 --> 01:54:23,880
or that one over there I just don't know

2580
01:54:27,229 --> 01:54:24,780
enough

2581
01:54:29,149 --> 01:54:27,239
and I and uh and I don't know if anyone

2582
01:54:30,709 --> 01:54:29,159
knows enough to be able to say that so

2583
01:54:33,530 --> 01:54:30,719
that's where I come from that's where

2584
01:54:35,870 --> 01:54:33,540
I'm at yeah and and and and and heinek

2585
01:54:38,930 --> 01:54:35,880
uh when he went through Condon and he

2586
01:54:42,609 --> 01:54:38,940
went through Robertson right where there

2587
01:54:46,490 --> 01:54:42,619
it was an absolute deliberate attempt

2588
01:54:50,209 --> 01:54:46,500
to whitewash and cover up the phenomenon

2589
01:54:52,510 --> 01:54:50,219
itself for sure 100 that that there

2590
01:54:57,169 --> 01:54:52,520
there was no search for the truth there

2591
01:55:00,530 --> 01:54:57,179
it was a deliberate and and uh done with

2592
01:55:03,290 --> 01:55:00,540
with uh intent

2593
01:55:05,450 --> 01:55:03,300
to to run this in another Direction and

2594
01:55:07,550 --> 01:55:05,460
and he went through that twice

2595
01:55:15,669 --> 01:55:07,560
yeah

2596
01:55:19,669 --> 01:55:18,229
we've we've I just feel like we talked

2597
01:55:22,790 --> 01:55:19,679
about this earlier in the show we've

2598
01:55:24,530 --> 01:55:22,800
been down this road so many times before

2599
01:55:26,209 --> 01:55:24,540
it's just hard for me to get excited

2600
01:55:28,790 --> 01:55:26,219
because this always ends up you know how

2601
01:55:30,109 --> 01:55:28,800
many times have we been promised oh this

2602
01:55:31,609 --> 01:55:30,119
is going to be the big one and then it

2603
01:55:33,830 --> 01:55:31,619
turns out the next day everyone's

2604
01:55:37,129 --> 01:55:33,840
everyone's twittering oh it was just a

2605
01:55:39,229 --> 01:55:37,139
nothing Burger I'm so disappointed

2606
01:55:40,970 --> 01:55:39,239
you know and we just keep setting

2607
01:55:42,470 --> 01:55:40,980
ourselves up for that and I just don't

2608
01:55:45,410 --> 01:55:42,480
want to play that game

2609
01:55:47,209 --> 01:55:45,420
well we'll see we'll see I will we'll

2610
01:55:49,850 --> 01:55:47,219
see how the hearings go I could be

2611
01:55:51,950 --> 01:55:49,860
eating my words I know that and no I

2612
01:55:54,590 --> 01:55:51,960
don't I don't I would never say that I

2613
01:55:56,510 --> 01:55:54,600
would never say that I know I'm just

2614
01:55:58,850 --> 01:55:56,520
giving it a hard time but we're all

2615
01:56:00,290 --> 01:55:58,860
chasing the same thing we just want the

2616
01:56:01,490 --> 01:56:00,300
truth that's all we all want to

2617
01:56:03,649 --> 01:56:01,500
understand we all want to understand

2618
01:56:06,229 --> 01:56:03,659
that's why I want to understand what it

2619
01:56:08,990 --> 01:56:06,239
means man that's that's the point I want

2620
01:56:10,669 --> 01:56:09,000
to make too I you know for me it used to

2621
01:56:14,209 --> 01:56:10,679
be

2622
01:56:16,790 --> 01:56:14,219
um what are these things what are they

2623
01:56:19,609 --> 01:56:16,800
and I've evolved to a point where now I

2624
01:56:22,070 --> 01:56:19,619
think what do they mean that's what I'm

2625
01:56:23,750 --> 01:56:22,080
interested in what do they mean and so

2626
01:56:25,910 --> 01:56:23,760
all this government sentenced hearings

2627
01:56:27,950 --> 01:56:25,920
all that stuff no that's great but for

2628
01:56:30,590 --> 01:56:27,960
me that doesn't help me understand what

2629
01:56:33,050 --> 01:56:30,600
they mean that's all

2630
01:56:35,209 --> 01:56:33,060
thank you so much Mark thank you so much

2631
01:56:37,669 --> 01:56:35,219
and and again

2632
01:56:39,950 --> 01:56:37,679
keep rolling that rock uphill and after

2633
01:56:41,750 --> 01:56:39,960
the hearings I'm going to bring you back

2634
01:56:43,430 --> 01:56:41,760
it'll be a different show

2635
01:56:45,109 --> 01:56:43,440
all right that would be very interesting

2636
01:56:47,390 --> 01:56:45,119
and I would love to do that definitely

2637
01:56:50,270 --> 01:56:47,400
see you soon hey good luck on the strike

2638
01:56:52,090 --> 01:56:50,280
man and uh you know we got to put

2639
01:56:55,129 --> 01:56:52,100
everybody back to work

2640
01:56:57,430 --> 01:56:55,139
this town so uh good luck with that and

2641
01:57:01,490 --> 01:56:57,440
I'll speak to you soon thank you so much

2642
01:57:04,970 --> 01:57:01,500
bye everyone Mark O'Connell and uh his

2643
01:57:08,810 --> 01:57:04,980
sub stack mark o'connell.substack.com

2644
01:57:12,109 --> 01:57:08,820
is below so the links to that uh

2645
01:57:14,270 --> 01:57:12,119
O'Connell uh uh podbean the links to

2646
01:57:18,410 --> 01:57:14,280
that are below too as well and of course

2647
01:57:21,470 --> 01:57:18,420
we have them over on social media and uh

2648
01:57:24,609 --> 01:57:21,480
over on our website all right tomorrow

2649
01:57:28,070 --> 01:57:24,619
night Dennis Stone is with this

2650
01:57:30,169 --> 01:57:28,080
America's Stonehenge going down tomorrow

2651
01:57:34,490 --> 01:57:30,179
night here on Fade to Black very excited

2652
01:57:37,070 --> 01:57:34,500
about that Dennis is great and uh and

2653
01:57:39,290 --> 01:57:37,080
with that I want to say that fade black

2654
01:57:41,870 --> 01:57:39,300
it's produced by Hilton J Palm Renee

2655
01:57:44,089 --> 01:57:41,880
Newman and Michelle fried thank you to

2656
01:57:48,250 --> 01:57:44,099
Dennis and Kevin webmaster is through

2657
01:57:50,689 --> 01:57:48,260
the geek music Doug Aldridge intros

2658
01:57:52,669 --> 01:57:50,699
baseballmusic.com Fade to Black is

2659
01:57:54,890 --> 01:57:52,679
produced by kjcr for the game changer

2660
01:57:58,189 --> 01:57:54,900
Network and this broadcast is owned and

2661
01:58:00,109 --> 01:57:58,199
copyrighted 2023 by Fade to Black and

2662
01:58:02,149 --> 01:58:00,119
The Game Changer Network Inc it cannot

2663
01:58:03,890 --> 01:58:02,159
be rebroadcast download a copy to reuse

2664
01:58:05,689 --> 01:58:03,900
anywhere in their own Universe without

2665
01:58:07,189 --> 01:58:05,699
written permission from Fade to Black in

2666
01:58:09,050 --> 01:58:07,199
the game changer Network I'm your Jimmy

2667
01:58:11,890 --> 01:58:09,060
church till tomorrow night with Dennis

2668
01:58:14,100 --> 01:58:11,900
Stone I want everybody to be safe

2669
01:58:29,510 --> 01:58:14,110
go back Lee tappy

2670
01:58:56,650 --> 01:58:44,550
[Music]